The JCSW Show Podcast

Talking Inspiration to Action with our new Co-Chairs for 2023-2024

Welcome back to The JCSW Show for an exciting Season 2 kickoff. In our first episode, I engage in a compelling conversation with our new co-chairs for 2023-2024, Dr. Alicia Whittington, Assistant Director of Engagement and Health Equity Research, and Co-Investigator of Family Experiences Managing Football Lives (FEM-FL) for the Football Players Health Study at Harvard University, and Dr. Laurence Rahme, Professor of Surgery, Microbiology, and Immunobiology at Harvard Medical School, and Director of the Molecular Surgical Laboratory at the Department of Surgery, Massachusetts General Hospital.

Enjoy our thought-provoking discussion as we explore the theme for the academic year 2023-2024, "from inspiration to action."

Transcript:

Hardeep Ranu: [00:00:00] Hello, today, welcome to our new co chairs, Alicia Whittington and Laurel Rakhme. So Alicia, you and I have known each other for far too long or something like that. So yes, full disclosure, me and Alicia have known each other for many, many years. Since 2001. Yeah. 2001. So Alicia, do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself?

Alicia Whittington: Sure. Hello, everyone. My name is Alisha Whittington, and I am this year's staff co chair of the joint committee on the status of women at Harvard, and it's so awesome to be in this role. It's great to be on the podcast today. Thank you so much, Hardeep, um, and as she mentioned, we've known each other for quite a while.

Back in the day when I was a research assistant [00:01:00] right after undergrad, um, and Hardeep had So, Excuse me, Dr. Hardy Pranu had completed her PhD in biochemistry and we worked in the lab together and I admired her laboratory technique and I was like, wow, that's fancy. And so, um, we've just been friends ever since.

And at one point you were my manager. You were also one of the people that were instrumental in my master's thesis journey. So thank you so much. Um, and then I somewhat followed in your footsteps and also obtained a PhD, but different. topic. Mine was health systems management and what brought me back to Harvard was working with the football players health study.

And so it's so great to be here.

Hardeep Ranu: Great. Thank you, Alicia. Thank you for the compliments as well. I appreciate them. So Laurence, would you like to go ahead and introduce yourself?

Laurence Rahme: Absolutely. Yes. Hello everyone. Uh, I'm Laurence Rahme and I am this year's faculty co chair at the [00:02:00] JCSW and I'm delighted to be here.

Hardeep Ranu: Anything about what your faculty appointment is, your research background, how you got to where you are, where, where are you based?

Laurence Rahme: Yes. So, I am a professor of surgery and microbiology and I have been at Harvard Medical School since 1992. I joined, um, Harvard Medical School as a postdoctoral fellow, actually.

And then I went through the ranks and I'm delighted, uh, to be able to contribute to the, uh, joint committee on the status of women. I have been a member on and off over the years and finally I, uh, became vice chair and this year, uh, co chair, uh, together with Alicia. So I'm delighted to be here because it's so important.

to represent PhDs at Harvard Medical School. [00:03:00] JCSW has done a wonderful work over the years, and, um, I felt that we need to give a little bit more focus on PhDs as well, uh, besides MDs. Um, they work closely, uh, closely to each other. However, Highlighting of their amazing contributions. Uh, it's extremely important.

So this year, uh, we decided with Alicia to have limited different focus as usually. So we decided our theme is going to be from inspiration to action. And the reason being is we have every year we have amazing inspirational talks and, and people, they come over, they join us. We have this amazing discussions and, uh, then we leave the room.

So, the point is, what do we do after that? How we really utilize all this information and how we really move forward. And this is what we're trying to do this year, is to [00:04:00] provide ways for action. And we hope that everyone, uh, can find them help.

Hardeep Ranu: Sounds great.

Alicia Whittington: Yes, thank you so much for for the lovely words, Laurence.

We're able to have such a wonderful year because of all of the foundation, um, and the work that's been done by those that served in this capacity before us. And so I'm inspired, too, by hearing, you know, just others talk about, you know, how much fun they're having and how impactful the events have been thus far.

Um, and then when I think about inspiration to action, and I think about, um, the JCSW, like, before I even came back to Harvard, like, I'm just so thankful because, uh, Hardeep, as you remember, uh, at last year's Dean's Award, I, um, got up and spoke briefly and just looking around the room and I saw people that had some sort of influence on me being here today.

And so this is such a wonderful way to give back, pay it [00:05:00] forward, and It's really exciting. Also, um, one of the things that we've been doing this year with, uh, the theme from inspiration to action is highlighting the various achievements of different women just across the world, essentially. Um, so at each meeting, we take the time to highlight really awesome things that people are doing, and it's just, it's really fun, and we've gotten a lot of positive feedback.

And you never know when you may be highlighted, Heartdeep. You never know. Like what inspired you to, I'm sorry, but, um, like one of the things with Lawrence here, I look up to her while we are co chairs. And so I like to hear about her journey and, um, as a young scientist, or at least I think I'm still young, I like to glean from others wisdom.

And Hardeep, you know, I, I have roots in the South. And so one of the [00:06:00] things that culture, we love to do is sit around and hear all of the stories. And so when I hear my co chair talk about her journey, I'm just as inspired. And it really feeds into the theme from inspiration to action, because Uh, not only does she inspire me, but she holds me accountable, um, and when we check in, it's more than just what we're doing for the committee, but also to make sure that, um, whatever goals that I'd like to achieve, that I'm making progress towards those, and I appreciate her so much.

Hardeep Ranu: Thank you. So, Laurence, tell us a story. An inspirational story. I'm gonna put you on the spot. Where are you from? Yeah, where are you from? How'd you get here? Don't say buy the T.

Laurence Rahme: You guys, I'm not ready for that. I'm not in the mood for that. But anyway, you know, I really am not. I woke up this morning with my throat hurting me so much that I couldn't take it.

[00:07:00] So anyway, I was born in Lebanon. And I moved to Greece, uh, with, uh, my mom when I was about, uh, six years old. And I enjoy both cultures very, very, very much. And I like, uh, to be exposed to different cultures. And when I finished high school in Greece, I, I was looking into the possibility to experience a different culture.

So I decided to go for undergraduate studies in Italy. And, um, this is what I did, and I spent a wonderful five years in Naples. Then after that, the next step is, what am I going to do? I need to, uh, find a different culture. And I start looking in U. S. and applied to, uh, UC Berkeley, actually. And I was, um, accepted and I was thrilled and excited when I came in this country for the first time in my life.

And I will never forget when I arrived, you know, back then, that was [00:08:00] back in 1986. Some of you were not even born, but anyway. I remember when I landed, I was exhausted. I was traveling for 24 hours plus. And I remember when they came to pick me up from the airport and we're approaching San Francisco, you see these high rise buildings.

And I was, Oh my God, that was the first time ever I have seen that. Because, you know, in Greece, you cannot have high rise buildings because the law is that none of the buildings can be higher than Acropolis. So I was, I was amazed. So I completed my PhD at UC Berkeley, focusing on plan. Uh, and pathogen interactions.

And I had a great mentor. And, uh, when the time came to start thinking about my postdoctoral training, the idea was, I, again, I want to do something different and, but at the same time, uh, utilize my expertise and [00:09:00] expand, uh, in new areas. And I start looking into what are the next steps and start writing my thesis.

And the idea was, can I now work with human pathogens instead of, of plant pathogens? And if I can work with human pathogens, then I could utilize plants to actually perform high throughput screens. Because back then, we knew so little about human pathogens and mechanisms that human pathogens were utilizing to infect the hosts.

So, but the key was, is it possible that plant pathogens are using similar mechanisms to infect human pathogens? And that was a big question. And I was trying to start digging into the bibliography. And I was talking to my mentor about that, my PhD mentor, and he said, you know what, I remember an epidemiological study that was done many, many years ago.

about [00:10:00] how Pseudomonas aeruginosa gets into the hospitals and infects immunocompromised patients, and he introduced me to the person that has done those studies, and I start talking to them, and I found out that Some strains of Pseudomonas aeruginosa can infect indeed plants. And one of the ways that they were getting, uh, into the hospitals were through, you know, alimentation and ornamental plants that they were bringing to patients.

So I started digging into that. I ran some, uh, preliminary experiments, and I, I found some interesting things, and then I said, that's it. This is what I'm going to do for my postdoctoral training. But the problem was, people did not believe in me. So they were saying, are you crazy? This is extremely risky to do.

This is not a good idea.

Hardeep Ranu: Where have we heard this before? Only like a billion times.

Laurence Rahme: That's right. So new ideas are, are, are risky, obviously. And people feel uncomfortable, especially [00:11:00] if you are, you know, it's part of your career trajectory and therefore you need to have something secure. But if you take over a risky project and you succeed, then you make a big difference, right?

So it's worthwhile taking the risk. but setting limits for this risk. And that was my goal. And, and I was talking to people about it. I mean, uh, Stanley Falco, which was the god of microbiology and infectious diseases back then from Stanford, came to give a talk at UC Berkeley. And I was talking to him about that.

He said, well, it is a good idea, but it's very risky. I don't know if you want to take that risk. But I don't want really to discourage you, so I was, I started thinking, if Stanley says that, but I didn't give up. So I was keep interviewing and most of the people said, well, no, this is not the right project for our lab.

So finally, I said, okay, I'm going to talk to Fred Ausubel, that he's [00:12:00] over at Mass General and he, he does some work with plant pathogens and maybe You know, being at the hospital, he may be interested in a project like this. So he was the only person that he said, I love this project, and, but I have no money.

So you got to find fans to be able to, you know. So that was a big, uh, hurdle that I had to face and I said, okay, I'm going to apply to NIH and I did. There was a Fogarty International, uh, fellowship because I wasn't a U. S. citizen back then. So I was on a visa and, uh, the, the fellowships were very limited for someone like me.

I did apply. I got the fellowship. But then I realized that if I was going to accept the fellowship, I have to go back for two years to Greece or Lebanon. And then I said to Fred, you know, I cannot do that because I don't want to, you know, restrict my options. And we need to find [00:13:00] something else. So I declined, and then we start looking into other fellowships.

And I was able to connect and find an announcement by the Shriners Hospital, uh, here in Boston, which is actually across MGH. And they were offering a fellowship to actually, uh, focus on burns and infections. And I said, this is perfect, because Pseudomonas is a major, major, uh, pathogen for BAM patients.

And I, I, I start trying to get in touch with chief over at Reiner's, who was Tompkins, Ronald Tompkins. And Ron said, well, you know, unfortunately, the applications are closed and we can't really apply any more to that. But I'm very interested, uh, tell me more about it. And, and he got really excited. He asked us to apply for a grant, uh, with FRED, and we did, and we got it, and this is how the project started.

But my whole [00:14:00] point was that I know that it's very, very risky, and I told FRED, I'm giving to myself one year. If this is not going to work, then I have to switch to something safer that I have in my back burner, basically. And this is what happened, and then after that, everything is history in a way, because when I I finished my, uh, postdoctoral training.

I mean, I was close to finish. I start looking for jobs, and I had some very good offers, but, um, I had better offer from here. Because, um, a pharmaceutical company wanted to really to capitalize on these findings and, uh, in order for them to invest in this project, uh, they said, well, you have to stay here, and I said, okay, give me the money and I will do the job.

And, and this is what happened. And after that, uh, we were able, the, the whole point of my project was about to be able to utilize plants, to [00:15:00] perform high throughput screens, so you don't use animals, but you use animals selectively. In other words, Once you identify virulence factors that are important for infection, then you can test them in the animal system, animal, uh, infection models, to basically validate the relevance that these, uh, factors have.

And obviously that will allow you to minimize the, uh, the use of animals, uh, but also to look for some highly conserved and important factors. Once you find these virulence factors, you can really understand their mechanism. And then based on this knowledge, you can target them. You can develop ways and drags that they target these virulence factors.

And if you target virulence factors, you're not going to work as, uh, antibiotics work. In other words, antibiotics, they, don't, uh, select, uh, for a particular [00:16:00] pathogen. But if you know the particular virulence factor, say you have a specific drug for this virulence factor, you are not going to kill the beneficial flora, because the beneficial flora is not going to have these virulence factors.

So, uh, the pressure also for development of resistance to the particular gra uh, drug is going to be lower. So there are many benefits that, uh, uh, come from this whole study. And the take home message of all this is that yes, you can undertake risky projects and you should, uh, but you also should put limits in how long you can go after a risky project, uh, to make sure that you are going to end up being successful and utilizing properly your time.

Hardeep Ranu: What would you have done if it hadn't been successful?

Laurence Rahme: Well, obviously, I was thinking about a more, uh, conservative project, uh, back then. And obviously, I [00:17:00] don't know if I could get a job here, uh, for instance. So maybe my life was going to be different. Maybe not. But depends how successful the other projects was going to be.

But, you know, I always like to, um, something new. I love research, and I love solve puzzles, and I don't like easy puzzles. I like difficult puzzles, so. Yeah,

Hardeep Ranu: you're at what, Thursday, Friday, New York Times crossword puzzle, versus the Monday, Tuesday. Right? Well, Saturday, that's the hardest.

Alicia Whittington: I prefer Wordle.

Hardeep Ranu: So you had mentioned that, you know, it's important in the GCSW to have a voice for PhDs. So those people who are not MDs, basic scientists, kind of, why do you think that is? What, what's a unique [00:18:00] perspective of a researcher with a PhD rather than MD or MD PhD?

Laurence Rahme: Well, my thought is mostly about the affiliated hospitals, the researchers at the affiliated hospital.

As you know, all people are, you know, all affiliated. PhDs are based, I mean, their salaries and their work is based on soft money. So unless you're able to raise funds. You can survive here. So, uh, I understand the people are exceptional and outstanding, but they are high and low all the time. And, uh, I think it's important to have a stronger voice, and it's important to be able to, uh, make a difference from the point of view of creating a security blanket for these people.

I have been successful. I never ran out of money over the years, but I struggle. Uh, there were [00:19:00] years that my funding was strong and years my funding was very low. And that, uh, is affecting a lot of aspects in your personal life, in your professional life, and so forth. So, uh, highlighting the work that, uh, PhDs do, uh, it's important for people to understand The very important contributions that they bring to the table.

And, uh, I wish and I really hope in the future is going to be a more organized effort to be able to support, uh, these people because in other institutions too.

Hardeep Ranu: So this is kind of related in a sort of very tangential way, but as you were talking, I was thinking about, and I know Alicia, you do this so well, you know, in terms of what you were talking about [00:20:00] Lawrence, the importance of mentors, you know, in whatever journey you're on.

So I'm going to ask Alicia first. What do you look for in a mentor? How would you describe mentorship? You know, what do you, what do people get out of it? What do you get out of it? Interested to hear your thoughts.

Alicia Whittington: Sure, thanks so much, Hardeep. I think that mentoring can take on many forms. In fact, I remember goodness, this was pre pandemic I had the opportunity to go to a two day workshop on mentoring and it was for Younger investigators, fellows, postdocs within the Harvard system.

And I learned so much. And one of the things, well, one of the activities was creating a map of your mentoring sort of circles, trajectory, or however you would view it. Um, and I never really thought about the fact that there's like peer to peer mentoring. So you have different colleagues and friends, um, [00:21:00] from various parts of your life that you may run certain things by.

And then sometimes you go on to mentor those who are like aspiring to be where you are, even though you're aspiring, like, you know, to get. to your original goals and to accomplish those, which is amazing because you never know who's watching as you're going through these things and they pay attention.

And in terms of the mentors that I've had in my life, one of the funny things that I share with people is that before I'm anything in terms of being a scientist, musician, storyteller, all the things that I call myself, Number one. I am a very annoying little sister. So being number seven of eight kids, you have like a unique sort of personality trait that comes along with that.

And so growing up, whenever I found someone to be interesting, I would always just start asking them questions. And over time, that's been one of the ways that I've been able to identify mentors, not by annoying them, but to ask great questions [00:22:00] and things. And some of The mentors that I found in my life, it wasn't like a sort of structured thing.

It was more so a, Hey, I'd like to know about this and how did you do that? And whatever I was going through, whether it was school or trying to figure out a move back and forth across the country, I just have incredible people in my circle to. Just bounce ideas off of and I remember reading an article before I came back to Harvard over seven years ago and it mentioned Just, it was a very simple article, two traits of success, results and relationships.

So as a scientist, we all know what the whole like results piece means, like including the science and then just things in your life, but then building strong relationships. And that means, you know, reaching out to your mentors, mentees, peer to peer mentors or mentees. When you don't even need anything from them [00:23:00] just to see how they're doing acknowledging their humanity because while you look up to others, they're still going through, you know, the motions to Lawrence just mentioned how you know, she's been able to have a lot of success.

And then there's things that she still has to work on, you know, the whole soft money piece procuring funding. And I may not have told her, but I do see her as a mentor. Um, and see, that's another thing. Sometimes it could just be inside of your head too, but you just really look up to someone, but she knows now.

So that means that I get to ask her additional questions. And I was a part of this leadership cohort earlier this year, and there was, Something that was said in one of our sessions that has really resonated with me, and they specifically said that women, especially women of color, are over mentored but under sponsored, and I was like, wow, and I had to sit with that.

And so, um, the difference [00:24:00] between, you know, the whole mentorship versus sponsorship was something that took me a while to really understand. And so the sponsorship piece, like when you're not in the room, who's speaking on your behalf? Who is creating a pathway to additional opportunities? Um, and it's just beyond what you can even see sometimes.

And I just think that's absolutely riveting.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, it's about who's Who's noticing you and putting you forward? Yeah, I think that's a really great point and a great thing to think about and you know, it's not just the mentorship It's it's who's gonna boost you without you being there

Alicia Whittington: and it's really Important because the three of us are first gens in different capacities.

And so In my trajectory, I'm the first generation to go to college and beyond, and the beyond is definitely [00:25:00] an add on, so there's been a lot of, uh, trailblazing, so to speak, and these things are just really important, because as you go through these journeys, and we all know going through the PhD journey can sometimes be so lonely, because it's up to you to finish, and oftentimes you have to fight to the finish, and, um, These, these things are really important.

It was just so great to have people that would just inspire me with the littlest things.

Hardeep Ranu: Laurence, what about you?

Laurence Rahme: I absolutely agree. Whatever, um, has been said, I, I agree with you that it's so important to sponsor people, not only mentor people, to really open, uh, avenues for them, of course, if they deserve.

I, I always have advocated for dual mentorship. And what I meant by that is exactly this, you know, you really need to not only [00:26:00] mentor on a specific aspect of the research, but also mentor from the point of view of what is next, how your life is going to be and why, and just give some people. Uh, I give input and, and guide these people through what is the best trajectory for them.

Of course, it's up to the person to decide, but the point is you just put the cards on the table and try to help them out. So you know, I am honored that I have been nominated many times for mentorship and I, I have been recognized as well. So it's very, you know. Coming from not growing up here or born here makes my, you know, I really want to help especially international students because I know how hard it is.

I know how hard it is to move from one culture to another culture and how people perceive you and, and from the point of view of You know, you, [00:27:00] you're trying to fit in, uh, at the beginning, you don't know from where to start, and that's another aspect of, of help and mentorship that international students and, or, or, or faculty or whoever that is, they really need.

There are so many, and I do agree with Alicia there, mentors take different shapes and, uh, and forms, and you can have all sorts of different mentorship, but you just have to. see what the person needs and every person is different, obviously, right? So that's another aspect that a mentor should keep in mind.

But what is important is also how mentees, uh, see the mentor.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay. At the end of this academic year, and you look back, both of you look back on You know, the work that you've done as co chairs for the JCSW. What do you want to be proud of? You know, if you imagine people talking about you in that kind of sponsorship way, what do you want people to say about you?

Alicia Whittington: I'd [00:28:00] like for people to say that I, along with everyone else, made a positive impact. I'd also like for people to say, you know, I randomly saw Alicia or Laurence walking around campus and they were approachable. We stopped, we talked about this. Also, um, how they were. Inspired to do some sort of action and to see the impact of the theme, because hopefully, you know, this will have moved the needle on many of the conversations that we've been having for years.

And I also hope that not only does it inspire up and coming generations, but also the ones that feel as though they're, you know, headed towards the lovely years of retirement, but their voices are so key. And for them to also be inspired to act. And Hardeep, you know my [00:29:00] family, there is some longevity there.

Um, and my dad's oldest sister just turned 100. And you know, my grandmother lived to be 113. But this aunt that just turned 100, my Aunt Flossie, she wrote a book when she was 90. And the thing about that book, And this is where I would inspire, well, encourage anyone to, no matter, like, where you are in life, to, if you have a goal, a dream of something, go after it.

When she published this book, and I sat down to read it, and it inspired me so much because I learned about my family history, and had I known some of these things, I'd probably be further along simply because Just reading about my great grandfather's story and my grandfather, people I did not meet, and how they put so much in action that I was inspired to continue something.

And so I see how even my life falls in line with this year's theme. And so, just more, just [00:30:00] community, which is so important, and we really, really, um, started to understand that even more in different and more profound ways, having gone through the pandemic, and with so much of everyone's work really pivoting towards things that, you know, we needed to accomplish during the pandemic, I'm really inspired.

And I hope to continue to just do some of the work on the ground.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, it seems to me that you guys are really raising the bar for programming, you know, thinking about what you want people to, you know, hopefully take away. So, Lawrence, what about you?

Laurence Rahme: Well, I think Alicia said it all. It's exactly, that's the reason why we work so well together.

Basically we, we see things the same way. And it's exactly what she said. I mean, um, one of the things that I really wanted to convey and underscore in a way is, as I said, if you have a dream or a goal, go [00:31:00] after it. Try to, to achieve it. And this is part of the inspiration and the action theme that we have, uh, this year from inspiration to action.

Hardeep Ranu: As we start to wrap up here, and you guys have given me so many things to think about and other questions to ask, but I have two questions that I always ask everyone. One is what professional skills are you working on? And the other is what personal skills are you working on or you would like to work on?

And I think having heard what you were talking about, you know, my third question be well, what is your dream right now? And it could be It could be learning to surf or tap dance, whatever.

Laurence Rahme: Well, my dream is to be able to make a difference with the work that we're doing. So this is what has been my dream all along.

So I always try to, I love translating. [00:32:00] And especially in the area of infectious diseases and the lack of antibiotics that we have. So my dream is for our work to really be helpful and make a difference.

Hardeep Ranu: What about the skills, professional and personal skills?

Laurence Rahme: Well, we learn every day, so we, I think it's always a good idea to keep your mind open and be open to learn.

In fact, when my people join the group, I always tell them, I'm learning from you, you're learning from me. We have to keep this interaction open and bounce ideas and don't be scared to, to say your opinion, to state your opinion. This is fine. This is so. I look always to improve myself in every possible way.

Hardeep Ranu: Wait, I love how you said, my people, my people. [00:33:00] It's like you have your arms around my people.

Laurence Rahme: Right. I see, I see my people like my family. Actually, this is how I see them and how I interact with them.

Hardeep Ranu: Alicia, what about you?

Alicia Whittington: I would like to be known for Being a kind individual that was always helpful and to be known as a champion of all things community community based participatory research, advancing health equity and bridging various communities together.

So bringing the scientists, researchers, clinicians, and various communities that are affected by the work that we do, bring them together so that we can have some of the most constructive conversations towards health equity, which is essentially achieved when everyone has the ability [00:34:00] to achieve optimal health.

Hardeep Ranu: What about your personal or professional skills?

Alicia Whittington: So, I'm actually, uh, chasing one of my longtime goals at the moment. Uh, this semester, I enrolled in the Masters of Science in Media, Medicine, and Health program here at Harvard Medical School. And, I have always been into storytelling, and so to be able to, uh, learn a little bit more about evidence based storytelling, and with all of the skills and experiences I've acquired, I would like to do more writing that reaches the masses, because I know that somewhere there's someone that can identify with my journey and hopefully it will inspire them to go after their dreams because it took a lot of courage to get to some of these different places that I've been very fortunate enough to have, you know, as part of my life's journey.

And so that. And it combines personal and professional skills. Uh, professionally, I like [00:35:00] to dive even more into like the research translation piece, simply because scientific papers can be very dense. And I remember being in the PhD program where with every course, we had an exercise where we were assigned one of those dense papers and you knew nothing about it, but it was your job to teach it to the class.

And the wonderful thing about that is to be able to explain something that's quite dense to where anyone can understand it. That means that you've actually mastered the material and that's just really important. Also a few other personal things. I would like to get back into more of my, um, creative things, so I craft, um, and then, you know, I'm a musician, I've been playing the violin for a very long time, and viola, just to tap back into those things and enjoy it.

Maybe take an art class or something. Just do something that, you know. But just help me with the creative piece because there is a correlation between the creative side and [00:36:00] then the scientific side and and that was a part of my upbringing and just to bring it back, I think it will make me a better scientist and person.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, 100 percent 100 percent you know that left brain, right brain. Yeah, working the left brain is really important, and also gives you a different perspective on the, on the science side of things, and plus I believe that science is. Being creative, you know, when you're thinking through ideas and new ideas as well.

So what do we have to look forward to in the, for the JCSW in terms of programming? What are we going to stay tuned for?

Alicia Whittington: Oh, yes. Stay tuned for more fun. So, uh, most recently we had this incredible networking event. Uh, we also had someone to come speak about finances and there's a. Follow up a conversation about that happening in December.

Then we're planning some great things for the rest of the year. Uh, Lawrence and I have the esteemed honor of planning our celebration for International Women's Day, which will be [00:37:00] observed on March 14th. So, stay tuned, we're planning some special stuff, and it will be fun.

Hardeep Ranu: Excellent, so we've got some surprises to come, it sounds like. And how did the networking event go, and what was the feedback? Well, what is your feedback as well?

Alicia Whittington: I had a ball. So one of the things that is under our list of responsibilities as co chairs is to support the various subcommittees that are, um, carrying out such incredible work. And the program was great.

All of the speakers, incredible. Um, and we were able to sort of, you know, give the introduction at the event and you could just feel the excitement in the room. And, you know, speaker was absolutely phenomenal. And it was so great that, um, they were trying to give her a time limit, but she was like, uh, no, no, no, I still have things to say.

But it was so beautiful just because, um, I think that everyone walked out of [00:38:00] the room inspired. And one of the speakers, I believe her name was Diana, is Diana Darling. And she talked about the art of networking. And one of the things that I loved about this event, so I love to read, I love it when people write books because to write a piece that will live on and to share these thoughts with everyone, I just think that's really special.

And so for the three panelists and speakers, they had their books there. And so I was able to get a book, and then, and it was very difficult to decide which one I wanted, and then to just walk around to the different tables. And meet people from across the university. It was really awesome to hear people ask, well, how did you get involved with this?

And someone looking up to me in those moments. And I was like, wait, I'm looking up to others and trying to be like this. So no, it was just so, so awesome. I got to sit down and talk to people about the work they do and just. It's always wonderful to have that, you know, [00:39:00] community fellowship and everything together.

Hardeep Ranu: But okay, that sounds fantastic. Really great. And so I'm gonna say thank you to both of you guys for doing this. I really do appreciate it. Because we can't have a podcast without guests. I don't think anyone wants to hear from me.

Alicia Whittington: We have to be quiet. True.

Laurence Rahme: You're doing such a great job, you know, I I I don't know how you do it, but

Alicia Whittington: The Oprah of HarvardUniversity

Laurence Rahme: Here you go, that's right

Outreach Unleashed with Countway Library's Meredith Solomon

In this episode, I chat with Meredith Solomon, the powerhouse behind Countway Library's Outreach and Public Services. This podcast provides insights into the dynamic and collaborative settings where Meredith thrives and offers a unique perspective on the vital role of outreach in the library profession.

Transcript: 

Hardeep Ranu: [00:00:00] Hi, today we have Meredith Solomon, who is the manager for outreach and public services for Countway Library. So, Meredith, welcome. Thanks for having me. And would you like to introduce yourself?

Meredith Solomon: Sure. I am actually a medical librarian by trade. I received my MLS back in 2006. I've been working in health science libraries even before I went to graduate school.

I've been in the field of health science libraries since 1998. Um, doing a lot of traditional library work, working in small community hospitals, large metropolitan hospitals, and a couple of different academic institutions. I've been here at Conway about, this month I think makes six and a half years. My work here is less of a [00:01:00] traditional librarian and more of, I guess, a community builder for Countway Library.

Okay, great.

Hardeep Ranu: And so what does a medical librarian do like a typical, you know, before you were doing this community building, what were you, what would have been your day to day tasks?

Meredith Solomon: Sure. Um, so here at Countway, a lot of our research and instruction librarians are involved directly in curriculum based instruction during certain parts of the curriculum.

They definitely get the first year medical students ready to begin their clinical experiences. So teaching them about the databases, the types of databases, the different kinds of databases and how to really become a better critical thinker when they're in a patient interaction and have a question. We also work on a lot of research endeavors.

So, there are lots of different types of reviews, scoping reviews, systematic reviews, [00:02:00] or just overall general lit reviews that our research and instruction librarians can help with. We tend to know how to use the database as much better than any average individual. So, our goal is to. Teach our users how to better use them, but also to save them time and effort so they can continue doing what they're supposed to be doing work wise, whether it's being a better clinician or being the best student you can be.

Some of our medical librarians actually work on research data management. So they help labs managing all of the data that all of the experiments come up with, whether it's lab notebooks or electronic or in print digital repository information, it runs the gamut. At least these days, it's definitely expanded as.

Was slightly different when it was back in the, in the nineties. So we've definitely, uh, grown in our knowledge, skills, and abilities. So,

Hardeep Ranu: you know, I come from a science background being in the lab, but how would you have helped me when I was in the lab, you know, with my lab notebooks, with, you [00:03:00] know, the data that we were generating, I'm just curious because maybe it's something that's.

People wouldn't normally think about, you know, going to the library to help with their data curation.

Meredith Solomon: So, many of the labs, especially here on the Longwood campus, whether it's at Harvard Chan, Harvard Medical School, or the School of Dental Medicine, um, as well as at our affiliate hospitals that are there, a lot of them are federally funded through the government, so their data needs to be made publicly accessible.

You also want to make sure that your research is reproducible. So sometimes as a scientist, you're extremely focused on your lab experiments, right? And at least getting the data down. But then there's this other chapter of how to make sure that your data is not only openly available, but easily accessible and easy to find.

Maybe it needs to be managed and organized differently than you would organize it as the individual who's doing the experiment. There's no right [00:04:00] way to organize your data and make it readily available. There are multiple ways to do that. So not being a research data management librarian, I'm talking from this from a very like overarching umbrella definition.

At some point, we may have some RDM librarians who are JCSW members who can tell you a bit more about Pacific, but there are some. Federal guidelines that and I, and other federally funded institutions are requiring you to do with the data. Um, so we have a lot of research data management librarians who are very highly and skillfully trained on what that means and how to go about it.

That's about all I can share on that because it's not my, that's definitely not my forte. So,

Hardeep Ranu: one of the things I also have heard, this was a long time ago, that, you know, for somebody who is going to get a degree in library science, right, really there aren't that many jobs in libraries. You know, [00:05:00] has that changed?

This was a while ago, but has that changed because of the scope of the

Meredith Solomon: work? In the field of, like, health science librarianship, definitely, there are definitely different new types of jobs available in what we, instead of calling it, it was once called, and we still do call it medical librarianship, but because we have non MLSs, sometimes we do have just PhDs in bioinformatics who work for the library.

Um, who now have PhDs and scientists who may understand the science background better than those of us with library degrees do. So we like to use the term health science librarianship to make sure that it's actually all encompassing. So we can include dental medicine, public health, um, even, even nursing, right?

And, uh, pharmacy, um, and other aspects of the health sciences. As for the number of jobs, if we're talking about health science librarianship, It ebbs and flows, just like sometimes other disciplines. [00:06:00] Unfortunately, we're losing a lot of hospital librarians. Our hospitals focus a bit more and these are my own personal statements that we have seen this when we look at national data here in the United States.

I'm not too sure about other countries outside of the U. S. But our hospitals here in the United States are for obvious reasons, very focused on the bottom line. And any library in any institution is a non non revenue producing entity. And it is not cheap to subscribe to the databases. And the full text journals to make sure that the staff.

Who need that support and those research tools have them. So, when librarians do leave and or retire from hospitals. The spaces are being taken up because it's hot real estate because hospitals just need the space. For our ambulatory services and other reasons. And then, unfortunately, they're not, they're not rehiring.

So, hospital libraries have [00:07:00] seen a very steep decline. In the number of librarians, but I think our academic institutions. I don't want to say that we've seen a large increase. If we have seen a bit of an increase, I would say that it has to do with. The leadership of the library. imparting on the leadership of their institution, the importance of that library to the institution.

I think that's the biggest thing. If you show the value added that your library can have to your students, staff, and faculty, you can be extremely successful. My job was a job that never existed at Countway until I was hired in 2017. And my director created a new position because she felt that it was an important position to have.

And she was lucky enough, or what's the word that I want to try and say, she was, uh. She had the foresight? Yeah, she did. And then she was able to really share that information and really explain to leadership why it would be important for them to, you know, basically add more money to the library's budget for another personnel.[00:08:00]

So if I was like,

Hardeep Ranu: so I'm in, back at my research lab, right? And I want to do a literature search on COVID, right? Right. I'm going to do, write a big review. Mm hmm. It was a big ass review, but um, a big review on COVID, right? Something about it. Long COVID. And I was like, okay, I can go to PubMed. Put in long COVID and I'll get, I don't know, a hundred thousand hits.

Right. So now I can go and click on each one of them. You know what I mean? It can filter through whatever, whatever, however I want to do it. You

Meredith Solomon: can spend a really long time doing that.

Hardeep Ranu: Right. I can do that. But then if I came to the library, how would you help

Meredith Solomon: me to do that? Well, library would probably ask you a few other probing questions to find out what more about long COVID you were interested in.

So is it. Whatever it be, is it a particular population of individuals? So is it race? Is it [00:09:00] age? Is it ethnicity? And then what about long covert? Are you looking for. Long covid and other comorbidities, or are you just looking at long covid over a period of time? I mean, long covid hasn't been around as long as some other health conditions.

So your date limitations, you wouldn't have to really worry too much about. When the articles were published, right? Because long covid really is kind of the newer topic, but we would also ask you about what date range do you want to do the last 10 years? Do you want to do a. Retrospective and go back 50 years and compare 50 years ago to today with long COVID.

We can't do that. But COVID has been around for a bit now and long COVID is, you know, long COVID symptoms are occurring more so now. We would also work with you to create a more specific search strategy rather than just searching long COVID. Long COVID is one of many. Terms that you can use long term and maybe the [00:10:00] colloquial term to use, but there may be a more formal, you know, medical term that the literature is using.

So we would kind of help you to reel in the who, what, why and how of your search. So then you may not get hundreds of thousands of hits and you may only get 2500 hits, which, to be honest, I would rather sift through 2500 than over 100, 000. Or it could be even smaller. Sometimes there are topics that are very niche topics or that are not actually heavily published on.

You just hear about it. So our goal is to really help you build a, a better search strategy and have what, what I've learned in the terminology to be high relevancy and low retrieval. So you want the most relevant articles in the least number of articles rather than the flip side. Okay. So,

Hardeep Ranu: so you've got a library, right?

Most people think it's a place. Well, you just go and get a book out. Yeah. [00:11:00]

Meredith Solomon: Right. Yeah.

Hardeep Ranu: Used to be. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, even. You know, a while ago, I was thinking about, oh, I need to read more and, oh, I'll buy the books on Amazon. But then I was like, why don't I just get them out of the library?

Meredith Solomon: 100%, 100%.

Yeah, I can't wait. So we have all the academic needs for you, for those of you who are in the lab, for those of you, like you and my, and myself who are in administrative positions. We've got all that, the journals for the students, for the faculty, for the curriculum. Those. who are listening will primarily be, you know, affiliated with Harvard, whether it's the Longwood campus or any of the other campuses across the river in Cambridge, there are, and I apologize for not knowing the exact number, but there are a number of Harvard libraries that you have access to their collections as well.

So some of the undergraduate libraries will have the extracurricular reading that you want. There's a, you know, a newly published biography or [00:12:00] autobiography about somebody that you really wanted to read, right? Whomever that happens to be. Or there's a piece of fiction, you know, that was recommended by a friend or a piece of nonfiction, recommended by somebody, a colleague, a coworker, using the online catalog, which we call Hollis.

not necessarily the easiest tool to use for those of you who are listening and have used it and get frustrated. We, even as librarians, get frustrated with Hollis itself, but it's what we have to work with. But you can look up those books and have any book, whether we have it at Countway, at any of the other Harvard libraries, or we don't have it at all, you can actually request any item of no cost to you.

And that library will that item wherever it may come from will then come to you wherever you want it to come to. So if you are now working a hybrid or you're working primarily from home and you don't live, you're not coming to Longwood campus, but you live in Somerville or Cambridge or Medford and you live, you know, closer to the, the Harvard yard [00:13:00] area, you can have your items delivered to the closest Harvard library there is to you for you to come.

And pick up. So it's not only for your work slash school needs. It really can be used for your own, for your own personal family needs as well. Whether you have spouses, partners, children, other family members, and some of the libraries are music libraries. So if you're a musician and you're looking to find some new sheet music to play, the music library can help you with that.

Uh, the Schlesinger library has an extremely large collection of cookbooks. So, if you're looking to try out new recipes, you can, you can do that. So, you don't have to use Amazon. Amazon comes directly to your front door. So, it does make it even more convenient than. You know, going to a Harvard library, but I think, like you said, you should check out to see what the Harvard libraries have.

But as I said, it doesn't have to be at a Harvard library. You can use what we call [00:14:00] interlibrary loan and this library staff. Well, then find a library. That has the item that you're looking for, send it to us and allow you to check it out for a number of weeks, sometimes a number of months.

Hardeep Ranu: And the thing that is that at the Harvard libraries and the public libraries.

Correct. It's free.

Meredith Solomon: You don't have to pay. No. And in Massachusetts, even if you may live in. You know, JP or Boston and you have a Boston public library. There's a lot of reciprocity. There is a, so that you can use the public libraries throughout the entire state of Massachusetts and beyond. So your public libraries can also do interlibrary loan as well, though I'm less familiar with whether or not, if it doesn't come within the, I think it's the minute men, something or other, like the entire state of Massachusetts.

If they can't find it in the state. I'm not too sure if public libraries charge you. Or not, I think it just varies by state to state and like kind of district to district, [00:15:00] but you're at your public libraries as well as one of the fringe benefits of being a staff student or faculty at Harvard is the ability to access just anything that's circulating.

I should say anything that can actually be checked out from any of the Harvard libraries.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. And back in the day, I used to go to the Widener library. Yeah. I would. You know, and I don't know, there's something about walking up those steps, right? So, really, you know, where the tourists are taking their photos, Yeah.

and then walking up the steps and going in. And then, you know, and there was a few times where they were just, they were just fiction books that I was interested in getting. And I was, you know, I was down deep in

Meredith Solomon: the stacks. Yeah. It's still a lovely environment in a library, right? The libraries are really still trying to, and unfortunately, COVID has kind of like, thrown a wrench in there because a lot less [00:16:00] people are coming to campus, so they're not entering the buildings.

In the field of librarianship, for sure, and in our health sciences, we use the term library as place, you know, that we still do have a place in the community in which our buildings sit. We just have to figure out how best to bring users back into the library in the age of what before Amazon was, you know, your Barnes and Noble, right?

That was the big online book seller and Amazon used to be solely a bookseller when it first, when it first launched, and then it became an even larger conglomerate that now you can, you can. By everything and anything on Amazon and other online online stores so we're really trying to work hard to, to bring people back to feel that feeling that you mentioned about walking into a building, whether it's up the stairs to this large grand much [00:17:00] older library like Widener is.

Compared to a library like count way, which was built in the early 60s, but still give you that feel. But our, our collection is down deep now to right. When you walk into count way for those of you who have been in there, you'll walk in. And you don't really see books. There's a few small collections when you walk into the right from the Shattuck street entrance, but all of our books are now underground 2 levels, but they're still there and it has a really great paper book smell when you when you enter the doors.

Hardeep Ranu: Right. There's also something, I, you know, I've always been a reader, right? So, there's just something about, you can go into a library anywhere in the world. Well, I can go, let's say, I can go into a library, anyone in the world, and you can go in and just sort of start browsing the books, and then you'll find something, and then there you are just sitting down.

looking at the books and it's all, it's, it's free. I mean, I think that's [00:18:00] the thing that I'm trying to say is this is huge resource out there, you know, is free and for people to

Meredith Solomon: take advantage of. Agree. Public and the academic, if you are, if you're lucky enough to, if you're, you know, or privileged enough to be a member of that organization, you know, or microcosm and you can travel the world.

And go into other libraries and take a look and browse but that browsing happens less and less these days, which is another reason why we are trying to count way to bring more people into our library. To be able to see the space and use and learn how to use the space or relearn for those of us who, you know, are not from the millennial or Gen Z.

Those of us who are Gen Xers and older where we really remember, you know, browsing, browsing the stacks, as we call it, you know, we weren't born digital. So there was no other way, you know, [00:19:00] to find a book and we were using card catalogs and you know, Or we were just walking through the poetry section, right?

Or the autobiography section and seeing what was on the shelf at that time, you know, cause what's on the shelf at that time is just only a snapshot. There are other books that have been checked out, so you can come back literally hours later, days later, weeks later, months later, and then there's going to be a different array of books on the shelves after that, so it's always something new.

Right. So you,

Hardeep Ranu: so you mentioned, and you are the manager of outreach and public services. And you mentioned community and getting people in to the County Library, especially now as it's been renovated and looks amazing. And so what do you want people to come in for in, you know, and feel part of the community?

Meredith Solomon: So with the new renovations of the library, [00:20:00] um, we opened our doors with our first renovation in January of 2021. And our most recent renovation kind of, we launched it in September of this year of 2023. Um, it's a collaborative space. So we want people to, especially those people who are working primarily from home to really think about coming back to campus, even if it's once a month, you know, and instead of sitting maybe in some of those really dry touchdown areas that are important to have.

So I'm not poo pooing the touchdown areas. That our schools are really trying to build to bring people back, but we have open table seating for folks to come in and work on their computers, but work in just a different environment. You know, working from home is helpful, but working from home can also be distracting.

Even if you're at home by yourself, there's always. Dishes to be done, laundry to be done, folded, put [00:21:00] away, animals pestering you in the middle of the day because they're like, let's go, you know, for a walk. And you know, you're like, I have work to do. So we want you to come in. We also want you to maybe come in and have meetings.

Um, we have study spaces, you know, and there are meeting rooms up on the fifth floor that you can schedule for meetings, whether they're small meetings, departmental meetings, or if it's just you and a colleague and you decided that you wanted to meet at the library. All of our 1st floor and most of our open areas on lower level.

1 are collaborative. So they're not quiet spaces. So you and a colleague can come and sit at a table, you know, on the first floor or lower level one and just kind of work together. You know, you can have your emails and send your emails and do whatever administrative work you have to do, but you can also talk to each other without having to worry about interrupting or disrupting the people around you.

If there was a meeting that you wanted to have, and rather have than having it on zoom. You [00:22:00] both agree that you would love to meet in person. Obviously, cafes are great, but sometimes again, noisy and distracting. We have a number of different size, what we call study rooms, but can be used for a small, small meeting rooms.

We also have a lot of other non academic related programming at our library. Our goal is to really treat the person holistically. We're all either student staff or faculty that are using the library for their academic purpose, but. We're more than just the academic part of who we are, right? We all have stress in our lives, whatever those stressors may be.

And we all need ways to manage that stress. And we need ways to what we would call a decompress and disconnect. You know, we're on our phones, we're on our tablets, we're on our laptop sitting in front of zoom. So we have pet therapy. We have concerts that happen, I guess, on a monthly basis for. 45 minutes where you can come to campus and listen to usually it's a [00:23:00] student or a staff member of 1 of our 3 schools who are trained musicians as well, who come in and donate their time to play music.

We have documentary screenings that we feel would on topics that we feel that the overall. User base of our campus would be interested in. So, like, we had mentioned earlier, you know, we want our library to be like the community center for the campus because we do support. All 3 of the schools, my email may say, and that's just from a budget financial perspective, but our library serves all 3 of the schools as equally as we can.

So, our dedication really is to the entire campus as well as our affiliate hospitals.

Hardeep Ranu: So, what was your background before you came to the position? Did you have that kind of experience

Meredith Solomon: before? Sort of. It was a long and winding road for me to actually get to where I got. I was definitely late [00:24:00] in getting a master's degree if you think of it from the traditional perspective.

I was 35 when I got my master's degree, and I have a lot of colleagues of mine who have been in the field of library science longer, we being the same age, but they've been in the field, you know, 10 plus years more than me. Initially, when I started my undergraduate career, I thought I would be a social worker.

And while I was an undergraduate, while I was in undergraduate school, I got a student job at the library. And that was at the university of South Florida in Tampa. And I worked there for a bit and then I realized, well, if I really want to be a social worker, I should probably go out into the mental health field.

So I left my student library job and became a mental health technician. And over a couple of years, worked at a couple of different psychiatric institutions, public and private, really loved the work that I did, but I was not emotionally mature enough and realized I. If I [00:25:00] do this now, I will burn out way too fast, and I actually really missed working in the library environment.

I really wanted to go back. So I kind of, that's kind of how I figured out that the library world was really where I wanted to be. So I was still helping people, right? I was just helping people differently. And then there was just lots of twists and turns in my life and it was much later about 14 years later when I then didn't finished my undergraduate degree, I'd stopped going I moved cross country, you know, trying to find myself in the 90s, I guess.

And then I knew that I wanted to be, I knew that library science was it I needed to get I wanted to get my MLS the Masters in Library Science. But I hadn't finished my bachelor's degree, so I went back to school. I was living in Portland, Oregon at the time. So I finished my undergraduate degree in about a year's time at Portland State University.

Applied and started graduate school in [00:26:00] 2003 and graduated in 2006. but while I was doing that. I got a job, my 1st medical library job, I should say, I started in 1998 at a very small community hospital. About 25 miles west of Portland, Oregon. And that's when I knew that This health science librarianship was the librarianship that I wanted to do.

It wasn't public, it wasn't the four year or community college, but I had never known that hospital libraries or medical libraries or what we call health science libraries. Now, I didn't know that they existed. It wasn't until I saw this job in the classified ads, when there were, you know, print classified ads or.

I don't even know how I found this job. Um, and I was there eight years and that allowed me to finish my undergrad degree and also go to graduate school. Being a pretty big extrovert with some introverted tendencies, my interpersonal skills and my relationship building, it was just kind of, it's automatic.

It's just how I live my life. You know, I can build a [00:27:00] relationship with a stranger in line at the grocery store. So I knew that that needed to be a part of whatever it was that I did in the field of library science. Um, and I knew that I didn't fit the traditional mold that we remember librarians to be older women, you know, bun wearing glasses, wearing older women telling you to, you know, be quiet in the library, and I tend to be the one to be told to keep my volume down.

Not anymore. Because libraries are not that anymore, but it was a long and winding road for me to get there. And ever since then, every library job that I've had, even if I did the traditional, like, research and instruction work, there was always some sort of outreach component. And now here I am managing a department where that really is the primary role of what I do.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay. And where do you get your ideas from for,

Meredith Solomon: for outreach? Some come from, you know, myself or directives from the library leadership. But I learned very early on that. I don't ever want to be the 800 pound gorilla in the room [00:28:00] and tell anybody what they should and shouldn't do or what they want or what they need.

So I spend a lot of time getting to know the users, however, I can, and finding out what they would like to see. So always asking people at any events, one, how'd you find out about us to what other programming ideas, uh, lots of collaboration with student run organizations at our schools. I work very closely with all of the student affairs offices at the three schools here on the Longwood campus.

So, lots of collaboration and co sponsorship with all sorts of entities on campus to be able to then help them provide these kind of extracurricular activities or supplemental activities. That they may not have the full capacity to do because of the nature of their jobs. So, we work very collaboratively.

Okay,

Hardeep Ranu: and I know that you got a shout out the most recent state of the school [00:29:00] address by Dean. I did. So, which was amazing because I could go, Oh, well, I

Meredith Solomon: was a little, it was very weird. I can't remember if. Yeah, I was there I was late to the state of the school so I missed a lot of it so I wasn't too sure if I had missed it but it had happened towards the end of the state of the school and.

I knew he was going to give me a shout out because his speech writer had, had poked me about it, but I had no idea exactly what he was going to say or when he was going to say it or where in his speech. And yeah, it was kind of, it was kind of overwhelming. Cause then I kept getting, uh, I would get a number of either pings through Microsoft teams and emails and text messages, or when I would see people on campus, they were like, Oh my God, I can't hurt him.

I heard the team, you know, mention your name and very humbling. You know, I love the work that I do, but it's always great to be acknowledged by whomever it is and then to be acknowledged by Dean Daly was definitely, [00:30:00] you know, was pretty, pretty great. I need to, I should find that recording and I kind of need to save it.

It's almost like something I need to. I need to isolate that part so I can, I don't know if I ever look for a new job I need to isolate that section of his speech and put it in my digital CV or something right. I mean I could, I could write it down, because I think it was also because of the Social Justice and Advocacy Award that I had won through the Office of Diversity Inclusion and Community Partnership.

Yeah, it was pretty. I was pretty overwhelming, but exciting at the same time. Yeah, I

Hardeep Ranu: mean, clearly, what you've been doing, and are doing, has made an impact at the highest level, like somebody noticed. Right,

Meredith Solomon: right. I hope so. I mean, I think that's what my director had had hoped for when she created this position and hired me and it's definitely been a long road.

You know, none of this came easy. None of it came. None of it was [00:31:00] simple. You know, I had to sit down. I've met with a lot of upper level leadership. I've sat down with the former dean for medical education at 100. Now we have Dr. Bernard Chang, who I have been lucky enough to work really closely with as His previous position as, you know, advisory Dean for the PBD society at the medical school and I am the Peabody Society, medical librarian so I've worked with him very closely and now he's the Dean of medical education.

Within my first couple of months I also sat down with, you know, like Dean Fidencio Saldana who's. The dean for students at the medical school. I've sat down with the directors of student affairs like I've made sure that I was, you know, in the, and this was pre coven so people were on campus all the time and lots of meetings in person and not on zoom but I spend a lot of time really making sure that I get to know them but they also not only get to know me but get to know why I exist in the on the campus right that I'm a part of [00:32:00] Cali and that I myself am a part of Cali but there's this larger.

County library to be aware of so I kind of educate people about all the different facets. Of county library, even if I am not directly involved in all of those facets of the library. I work with them in some capacity and can then share and impart that knowledge out to our other users to then bring them back to use our services.

So. You know, it's been, it's been pretty gay, but it's, it's, it's a lot, there's a lot, there's a lot of, there's a lot of talking, you know, a lot of relationship building, right? Sometimes it doesn't go well the first time. So but I'll try another way. Yeah. You're persistent. I try to be sometimes. Yeah. I guess persistent sometimes, I don't know, sometimes persistent can put a negative spin on persistence.

So I'm not really too sure what the right like adjective would be, but yes. But I'm not persistent to the point of annoyance, at least I hope I'm not. Right, [00:33:00] but

Hardeep Ranu: it's, I was actually been listening to this podcast, it's called Good Bad Billionaires. It's by the BBC. Okay. You know, they'll have a particular billionaire and they'll sort of say, how did they get to their first million?

How did they get to their first billion? And then they'll have like some kind of judging, you know, what about their philanthropy, their influence, their power, you know, all of that kind of thing. And one of the things that I was sort of thinking about over having listened to a few of them over the past few days that, you know, it is about them being persistent, you know, and also one of the things was like, if they failed, they sort of got back up again and tried something else.

Right. So, I think being persistent is really important.

Meredith Solomon: Yeah, it's just how you go, it's how you go about it, right? You know, you don't want to be persistent and be derogatory or inflammatory, you [00:34:00] know, or I'm right, you're wrong. You know, you want to be persistent and be like, okay, maybe this wasn't the right time.

Maybe it wasn't the right discussion topic. Maybe it wasn't the right Plan of attack, you know, and then you do go back and you reassess right? It's kind of like your own every time. It's kind of a needs assessment, but on a little bit more of an individual level or a much larger level from a billionaires perspective when they're looking for investors.

Right? Maybe they weren't the right investor or not at the right time. So, yeah, you just kind of have to if it's a no, it's a no only at that moment in time. And then you go back. You reassess, what did you do? What could you have done differently? How could you have approached it differently? How could, how could you have sold it differently?

And then, you know, reschedule yet another meeting in some way, shape or form, or invite them to something that may be more impactful, right? Finding out, all right, well, what I did wasn't impactful enough for them to say yes to whatever it was your ask was. [00:35:00] So how can I make it more impactful or how can I show them that it's more impactful?

Right. It's,

Hardeep Ranu: it's sort of. Also, because I'm just, I'm thinking from the point of view that this was a new position and you're building this community. So right at the start, you have to be proving that it is important because it's a whole new thing. Right. And you like going, no, actually, this is a really good idea.

Meredith Solomon: Right. I mean, the thing was, is that the library wasn't a new thing, but even there's. Many people who work at any institutional organization that may have a library, even in your public library people are probably really unaware of the, the myriad services. And resources available to them through their library.

So my job was to make sure to go out there to talk about the work that people are doing and then to find out how I can connect them to either [00:36:00] services that they're already using and remind them about them or educate them on new resources and services. that would be extremely beneficial to either them or to the people that work for them or with them.

It's kind of like you don't know what you don't know. So my job is to kind of share with you, whomever you happen to be, what you don't know about the library. And I've met faculty and other staff who have been at Harvard for years who had no idea that our research and instruction librarians can help with literature searching.

You know, some people know that that's definitely not a skill set of theirs and it's time consuming and they were like, wow, this would save me so much time and energy for a librarian to help me with this than for me to try and attempt it by myself. And that, that's the goal, whether it's literature searching, managing data from your experiments, imparting new instruction, learning new [00:37:00] resources.

We're coming to, you know, stress and give a hug to a lovely, floofy dog who's just looking for love.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, I especially love that you have now a guinea pig.

Meredith Solomon: Yes, we have two guinea pigs. They're owned by the same handler. So we do, we have two. And I was so surprised at The response. There are a lot of people who currently have guinea pigs of their own or grew up with guinea pigs as pets, rather than dogs or cats or birds or anything else and so bringing her me and Calvin.

Those are their names to Calvin cuddles program has really expanded, who comes to see the guinea pigs but also then who then begins and starts to come to the, you know, the dogs. Thanks. Uh, we've had people coming saying, Oh, my God, I've had guinea pigs since I was a small kid and it just starts this great conversation with the, [00:38:00] with Nikki, who's the owner and handler of the two guinea pigs.

This great, really great, rich discussion about taking care of guinea pigs and how much they love them. And the 1st day that we brought in a guinea pig, we had, she was running a little late due to traffic, but there were 20 people sitting in our county cuddles area waiting to see her me the guinea pig 20 people waiting very patiently for her me and his his owner Nikki to arrive.

And I was. Pleasantly surprised it wasn't by no means was it a disappointment. I knew that people would be interested because how there are many people who have never been around guinea pigs, let alone a certified therapy guinea pig. But I even told my director I was like, I, I couldn't make this up if I tried.

And so now they come twice a month. I don't know exactly what's entailed through certifying guinea pig but it has to be a very well socialized guinea pig and [00:39:00] ours are. They allow you to pet them. They, she comes with these little soft bristled. They're almost like baby brushes. You can brush the Guinea pigs and she comes with food that you can then feed the Guinea pig with, so you're not watching her feed a Guinea pig.

You can actually hold the Guinea pig in its little cuddled bug bed thing, right? Guinea pigs, they need to feel safe as they're prey animals. Yeah, they are prey animals. So they like to, right, so they like to hide and right. But then she brings wheat grass and pea pellets and grape tomatoes and all sorts of stuff.

And people are just like squealing as they're feeding these guinea pigs, which just changes their whole aura, their whole presence. From when they walked into a library and they may have come in specifically for this, or they may not have had any idea. Uh, we had a PhD student at Harvard Chan who came and she had never seen a guinea pig up [00:40:00] close and the smile that she had was ear to ear so excited.

It was this new thing. And here's this young woman. She was just so excited to be a part of it. So it really, I watch emotions. Change relatively flat affect because we do work in a stressful environment to smiles from ear to ear where I know endorphins are now bumping and they'll have a different take on the rest of their day after seeing the guinea pig, or possibly one of our dogs.

Probably, it is our most popular program is our county cuddles our pet therapy program is. Our most popular

Hardeep Ranu: program. And so then, I mean, that's your social work

Meredith Solomon: beginnings in a way. It is right. Exactly. Exactly. So it's me and I attend as many of them as possible. And my goal is really just kind of let them interact and listen.

And then I kind of ask probing questions, but innocuous probing questions, you know, sometimes what school are you affiliated with? Always curious to find [00:41:00] out sometimes they're not affiliated with the school. They're, you know, they're postdocs at some of our affiliate hospitals. When I find that out, you know, then I, I asked them what program, you know, just to try and find out, or how'd you find out about us and whether it's through our.

Calendar of events, or it's through a colleague staff friend of theirs that. Told him about it, who was there previously. And that's kind of how I build those. And that's the start. Like you said, it's the start of building that relationship. So, then I can then continue to ask more questions about other services that they would like to see the library.

Okay.

Hardeep Ranu: So we're getting kind of close to the end of our conversation. And so I always ask two questions and there is a third that I have been asking as well, so, you know, the two questions are what personal skills are you working on and, or would like to work on? And what professional skills are you working on or would like to work on?

Meredith Solomon: So professionally, [00:42:00] this manager, that title that I have is a relatively new official title. So. I recently, this summer, spent and took a week long, uh, Leadership Institute for Academic Librarians. So it was specifically for librarians, but not just for those of us in the health science field. So it was people in academic institutions.

It was a very labor intensive, week long, six day institute held in person at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. So my professional skills are really trying to beef up. Not only my managerial skills, but my leadership skills to make sure that I can, whether it's here at count way or. At whatever institution and or library that I may be at is to really.

Not only help lead myself, but my department, my employees as well as the library as a whole into into the future to make sure that we don't become irrelevant. [00:43:00] But I also want to make sure that I. I'm always going to, I always wanted to not necessarily be a library director, but I always wanted to just kind of help mentor early career librarians to help them figure out what it is that they want to be in their library adventure.

Right, and kind of be there to help shepherd them, however I can. I see my perspective is not the only perspective but so I'm really trying to focus on. Right. Managerial stuff. Cause I do have a department to manage, right? So there's budgeting and conflict resolution and all that comes with managing a team, but then there's the larger leadership endeavors for me to start thinking more critically about things and big picture, I'm not the biggest picture thinker.

You know, I can think a few years out, but I'm not too sure that I'm good at like 10 plus years, you know, like the quote unquote future, [00:44:00] but. Every little bit counts. So leadership is really kind of my primary focus right now. Personally, I've been on kind of a health journey, making sure to keep my health in check, not getting any younger, it's not getting any easier.

So paying closer attention to that. Okay, great.

Hardeep Ranu: And so my third question is, what do you wish you could do? And it could be anything in the

Meredith Solomon: world, anything. There's a couple of things. If I was independently wealthy, I would love to be a philanthropist in some way, shape, or form. For a number of different things, or I would love to own a farm where I can find those animals who have not been treated well, take them in, give them the love and care that they need, but then also connect with the community.

You know, there are definitely farms in [00:45:00] their animals where people who go to therapy kind of come and do therapy with. By taking care of the horses or the chickens or the pigs or the goats. So I would love to just own a farm. I don't necessarily want to be the sole farm worker. I would need to need a staff.

But those are kind of the two I would love to do some philanthropic work. You know, in the community in which I live. And do the same thing but from the, from the farm animal perspective. That would, those are kind of the two things that have just always. I'm sure there are others, if I sat and thought longer, but those are the, those are the two that rise to the top.

Okay, right, yeah.

Hardeep Ranu: There's a farm up in, well it isn't a farm, it's a sanctuary up in Maine. I don't know if it's still around, but it was owned by this guy who was a Vietnam vet. But he would take in exotic animals, so he had hyenas. [00:46:00] Camels, tigers, Bengal tigers, you know, people would get as, like, cute little

Meredith Solomon: lion cubs.

And then, not so, not so small and not so easy to take care of anymore, right? Yeah, sanctuary is the right word. That was the word that I couldn't think of. But yeah, that's really, my sister and I talk about it every time there's a big lottery and what would we, you know, we always, we always sit down with my 14 year old niece and we're like, okay, it's not going to happen, but let's just play the what if.

What are the things that we want to do? You know, and there's personal things that we always want to do, help our families, you know, buy houses and whatnot, pay for college for, you know, cousins and sisters and brothers and whatnot, but then there's always the what's next. And so the sanctuary is always rises to the top.

I'd love to see if that sanctuary still exists. Cause I know there are a lot of sanctuaries who sometimes allow people to come and do some volunteer work or spend a weekend and work at the sanctuary. For a little bit and I know [00:47:00] that there are a lot over, you know, not domestically, you know, lots of rhino sanctuaries or elephant sanctuaries and others over whether it's in Africa or Asia or wherever it is.

And that's kind of like one of the trips that I would, I would love to take is to go and spend a week at one of those sanctuaries. How often are you going to say that you get to like have a tiger, you know, or an elephant or whomever it doesn't matter or rhino I don't really doesn't matter a hyena. It really doesn't matter.

It's just, you know, Yeah, I mean the hyenas were a little. Little, yeah, there might be a bit more trepidation for me with a hyena, but you know. They were a little, um. Aggressive?

Hardeep Ranu: No, I, I would say that. When I saw them and he could like he could almost roar like a lion, right? Right. And all those animals knew

Meredith Solomon: him,

Hardeep Ranu: right?

So wherever they were they then came to You know the edge of their enclosure to see him. Yeah, right And I [00:48:00] think this this guy, you know his for him make starting the sanctuary or working and building it was part of his You know, recovery from being in

Meredith Solomon: Vietnam. Absolutely. 100%. It really does improve people's mental health.

There are lots of people who are so very afraid of very many animals, even domesticated dogs with our county cuddles program. We have a number of people who come into our library who are very, very. They're scared of coming close to even our therapy dogs. And these are dogs that won't ever jump up on you.

Don't bark. They just want to be loved. But I've definitely seen growth in some of the students who continue to come into view from the outside. And then over time, they're in there petting the dog. And that just makes me happy that we've, you know, we've actually Change somebody's life, however, we've changed it.

And I will never know to the degree of which we've changed their lives, but [00:49:00] we've changed their lives in some way where they're less scared of this animal. And I don't know what then that does to them externally, but I hope it really does, you know, help change them for the better, right? Because the world is just a scary place out there.

And our job is to really just try and make it better, you know, make it easier. We were in this together, nobody's working in a vacuum and nobody's working. You know, by themselves, so. Our goal, not only my department but the library as a whole is really, we're all one big family to some degree, right, varying degrees of separation.

We're here to help is the ultimate, however we help so if you're just not too sure of how we can help, all you need to do is reach out and ask. And if we can't help you as information professionals, our goal is then to find somebody who can. Okay,

Hardeep Ranu: great. Thank you, Meredith, for doing

Meredith Solomon: this. Thank you, Hardeep, for twisting my arm very, very gently.[00:50:00]

Yeah. I appreciate it.

Hardeep Ranu: Like I have been saying, that I can't have this podcast, or we can't have this podcast without people being guests. Because nobody wants to be guests. to hear from me for an hour at a time or, or anything like that. And that's not the point of the podcast anyway. So yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time to do this.

Sharing all of your, your background and your work and what you also are wanting to do for the Harvard Longwood community as well. Yeah,

Meredith Solomon: so anybody, please feel free to reach out to me. You can do a Google search for me and there aren't many Meredith Solomons out there. If that's the easiest way to

Hardeep Ranu: do it.

Okay, great. Thank you.

Meredith Solomon: Thank [00:51:00] [00:52:00] you.

Cultivating Connections: Discover the art of crafting an empowering women's networking event in this episode. Join me as I talk with Michaela Tally, Lilit Garibyan, and Asia Korecka, co-chairs of the Community Engagement sub-committee, to go behind the scenes into the meticulous planning, strategic collaboration, and thoughtful details that brought together a powerful space for women to connect in November 2023. 

Transcript:

Michaela Tally: [00:00:00] Cultivating Connections was the best title because I feel like that's, that's what started this whole

Lilit Garibyan: thing. It all starts by connecting first, getting to know people.

Asia Korecka-Roet: Hello everyone, and welcome

Hardeep Ranu: to the JCSW show. I'm your host, Hardeep Ranu. Today I have something extra special in store for you. I'll be diving into the world of networking, empowerment, and community building. with the brilliant minds behind the groundbreaking event that happened at HMS last month. Also, for this episode, I'm trying a new format.

I hope you like it.

Asia Korecka-Roet: Maybe a little bit too much.

Hardeep Ranu: A room filled with the [00:01:00] energy of strong, powerful women connecting, collaborating and supporting each other's dreams. That was the essence of Cultivating Connections, a networking event that was designed for and by women that was held in November. Cultivating connections was not a normal networking event.

It was a gathering that went beyond exchanging business cards. It was about fostering meaningful connections and creating opportunities. Okay, now that I've set the stage, let's dive into the minds of the powerhouse team that brought this vision to life. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Michaela Talley.

Aja Kareka and Lilit Gurubian to get an insider's perspective on how they made it all happen. Welcome to the show. And could you introduce [00:02:00] yourselves?

Lilit Garibyan: Sure. So I'm Lilit Garibian. I'm one of the co chairs for JCSW Community Engagement Committee. I'm Associate Professor of Dermatology at Harvard Medical School.

I

Michaela Tally: am Michaela Talley and I am the staff co chair of the Engagement Committee. And I've been working with JCSW for, since about 2016. So a while now. Yeah, this was A great event and I'm glad that we're gonna be talking.

Asia Korecka-Roet: Hi, I'm Asha Kka and I'm the faculty co-chair of the, uh, community Engagement Subcommittee at JCSW.

I've been with J Cssw for, uh, over five years. Our co-chairing at the committee, which been really a great experience since fantastic learning. We went strong and went big. .

Hardeep Ranu: They went big. All right. They wanted to make it Harvard wide. So that would be including the Cambridge campus as well [00:03:00] as Longwood.

Michaela Tally: Hey, I remember that first meeting together.

Lilit was the one who, we all were happy to do it, but really pushed it and inspired it. I remember that day very well. You know, I do a lot of events in the course of my regular job. And I was like, can we pull this off? This would be great. And we did, and it

was

Asia Korecka-Roet: great.

Lilit Garibyan: Yeah, I mean, first of all, this all happened because of our entire committee, you know, because of Michaela and Asya, like agreeing to sort of take this on as a committee as one of our main projects.

I mean, when I was asked to join, um, to be a co chair, I said, this is what I wanted to really do. And I remember it was Melanie Forbes who was trying to get me to participate and take a leadership role. And when I first brought this on to her. She was really excited about it, but she like warned us that look, this is like a big undertaking, like we usually just do projects within the medical school [00:04:00] and that alone takes so much time and effort.

But I think what really inspired me to do this is because we all are going through challenging times, and I think in challenging times, it helps to sort of have a community of people that you could. Connect with and network with and rely on and we've always kind of limited ourself to the medical school, but Harvard is bigger than just the medical school.

You know, I think what makes Harvard great is all the people right? Um, and as a university, we don't really take advantage of bringing our people together. I mean, we barely even do that. Well, in the hospital level, I I mean, in the medical school level, because there's so many hospitals, and I think that's why I love JCSW, because it has given me opportunity to meet so many people from outside of Mass General, and to be honest, even within Mass General, I've met them through JCSW, because We, we don't do [00:05:00] such a great job in bringing people together.

Everybody's busy. Everybody has other lives, but making that connection at a workplace or a place where you feel like you belong, which is part of, you know, being Harvard. Um, it has a huge impact on people's wellbeing, on people's ability to feel that they're part of something bigger than themselves. And I think that was the goal of this that really the strength of our community lies in our ability to come together and empower one another and why not make it bigger, you know, and we were able to pull it off.

It was a lot of hard work. I heard Michaela talking about it, but I think the message resonated so well with so many people that they were willing to put in the time because it wasn't just something That I thought of or something that Michaela or Asya wanted to do. It was something that a lot of people wanted to do, but nobody had really made this a [00:06:00] goal or a mission for a committee to make it happen.

And I'm really proud that as part of JCSW, we did make that happen. Everybody played a role. And my goal is that after this, you know, since we got such great reviews, um, and people from Cambridge campus who came and saw the impact of it, um, that this continues on.

Hardeep Ranu: The panel consisted of Carol Simpson, a journalist, author, and former news anchor at ABC News. Diane Darling, an author and leadership coach, Kate Zanicki, a Pulitzer Prize winner, the author of The Exceptions, and a national correspondent for the New York Times. Let's hear how cultivating the connections of the members of the organizing committee and their own connections was behind putting together this incredible panel of speakers.

We [00:07:00] were,

Michaela Tally: you know, getting the speakers connected and just on board, it was a lot of work, but it was also like the title of the event, cultivating connections is also how we got the speakers. People use their network and cultivated their connections to bring the speakers on board. I think once we had Kate committed, it was much easier to sort of reach for the other and Diane Darling is local and Carol actually lives locally as well now that she's retired.

And when I heard that Carol was in the mix, I was stunned that she would even consider, because she's, you know, she's quite a trailblazer. I think the whole process of putting the event together, and then the title of the event, and then how the event ended up happening, and the excitement, it just, Cultivating Connections was the best title, because I feel like that's, That's what started this whole thing and the connection between the panelists.

Asia Korecka-Roet: To [00:08:00] have speakers who would be inspiring about, you know, their roles as women in leadership, as that leadership being the overall arching theme of GCSW last year. But also what we want is not only to have that one hour of speakers, but also to have a networking event. And so we also wanted a speaker who would.

Really focus on, you know, giving some really good tips and teaching us because that was, that was the idea to connect, right. To, to really be meeting people, not just listening. And so we've got Diane Darling, who's a expert and a well known network coach. And so she also. really focuses on how, you know, networking for women.

So it's just different dynamics. And

Lilit Garibyan: while we were starting to plan this event is when I came across Kate's book, which kind of focuses specifically on the importance of women coming together. So, like, the parallel was just so great that I went to her event in [00:09:00] April, I think I just by chance saw it on Twitter that she's coming to talk about this book, and I went early, so I met Nancy, and then I invited, I wanted to invite Nancy Hopkins, and then she said, no, you know, I'm too old for this stuff, why don't you tell Kate she will come, so she introduced me to Kate, and yeah, it was great, I mean, the, all the people who came to speak.

We're really perfect for this event.

Michaela Tally: They were all very different, but they did have the through line of the similar experiences over the generations. And then Diane sort of closing out the evening with the, the networking and the importance of it and the tips. And the practical part, which then I was worried, mostly, were people going to want to stay for the networking, you know, it's a two hour event.

We're still not, we're not used to that as much anymore, post COVID. There was so much energy from the event at the [00:10:00] end that almost everyone who attended the event. Because it was a different space, they had to leave the auditorium and go into the networking space where there was a, a reception as well.

And that room was buzzing and it was amazing. This wasn't

Hardeep Ranu: just run by these three amazing women. Many more subcommittee members were instrumental in making it happen.

Lilit Garibyan: We knew to make this into Harvard wide event we really needed to get people from other campuses and Melody was very helpful in connecting us with JCSW, Chad and some other, um, committees from the Cambridge campus.

I think CCW was probably the one that helped us the most because they're the biggest one and they're really focused on women. And they sent members to join our committee and they were very active in a lot of the meetings.

Michaela Tally: Yes, it was October of 2022 and we, we just became co [00:11:00] chairs that September. So, and I think in October, we had our regular community engagement monthly meeting.

And then we launched right away into a second committee just for this event. And we just started that second committee to be an event planning committee, and to reach out to colleagues. Most of the people who were involved and stayed involved were part of that committee. You know, we were really, we were really planning it for over a year before it launched, which I think is what you need.

To do for an event like this, that's entirely run by volunteers and people who are, you know, very busy with very demanding jobs.

Hardeep Ranu: And here's a shout out

to the other members of the committee.

Michaela Tally: So Amy Sarumi, Zoe Spearman in the Dean's office, Angela Alberti, who's from the CCW. She's the co chair. Anne Levy, Carla Kim.

Maxine [00:12:00] Milstein, Carmen Alvarez, Teddy Victoria, Neha Ad, oh I'm gonna, I don't, I'm gonna butcher her last name, Ada Kumar, Deirdre Hume, Ana Carolina, Lindsay Brownell, Marsha Haggis, Kelsey Morn, Yelena Bisharian, Courtney Ackerman, Arielle Klein. And um, Courtney, Arielle are also from the CCW. And we even had, uh, this amazing woman.

Susan Simons, who's a portrait artist, and um, she did all the photography for the event as well, and she did that pro bono, which was amazing. She just wanted to be part of the event and to support what we were trying to do. That was the

Hardeep Ranu: panel. But what about the networking part of the event? Let's hear more about that.

Asia Korecka-Roet: We worked with Diane Darling on the structure of the networking. So within the committee, everyone was [00:13:00] in charge of certain specific things, which also really helped because there was a lot of stuff to do. Like pamphlets, uh, scheduling and minute to minute, which Michaela really did wonderfully. Posters and, you know, the speak reaching out to speakers and all of that and writing out letters and then the networking.

And that darling really helped us with kind of finalizing the structure. So we'll, we'll be very organic. We want it to have an organic, but also structured because it's. People who don't know each other, and that's the whole point, of course, is that really bring people from outside of our space and network to come in.

Um, and I think like so far, we've had also looking at the repost events reviews that we got, everyone was really excited about every part of it. And they really liked the networking, the space, they liked the questions. They also like the fact that, you know, we had this kind of like a silly little thing with candy, and people really like that.

Because that gave him a little bit of a [00:14:00] purpose, which, because tables were divided by candy, different types, so that gave him a purpose. Because a lot of, a lot of people feeling introvert, they feel a little bit awkward coming up to a table if they're not assigned, so they really like that, and that broke a lot of ice for many people.

Like, Had a very good energy from that room.

Michaela Tally: Yeah, it's great. And, you know, Asha and Deirdre worked incredibly hard on getting the networking portion, the structure in place, but also including everyone on what kind of questions to ask, including everybody on the committee on what, what we were doing for the networking voting on one structure versus another structure.

So they really took charge of that. and then worked with Diane, but they also made it very inclusive and so that everyone felt a part of it and ownership of it. And then other committee members had great ideas about let's give away some of the books that our speakers have written. They'd all, [00:15:00] they all had books and Teddy.

And Carmen organized fundraising for that, um, through their department and we were able to purchase books from each of the speakers, which then we were able to give away to attendees who completed the survey. It was a very comprehensive organization for this committee. You know, things were really thought through, and, you know, we wanted to have data at the end of the event, and Lilit talked about that as well, is we want to continue doing this event, so we need some data to show the success of it.

So it was an amazing group of women with creative solutions, incredibly hardworking. incredibly innovative and just not giving up. That was, that was how I felt.

Hardeep Ranu: And using candy as a networking tool, where did that idea come from?

Asia Korecka-Roet: So Deirdre is a introvert. [00:16:00] So she was looking on Google basically on ideas of how to get introverts engaged with networking.

So I'm a little bit more of an extrovert. So it was a perfect combination of the two of us where, you know, we would kind of find a way to, to get the both groups engaged and I think it was just, yeah, one of those Google suggestions and we loved it was right after Halloween, which I thought was kind of appropriate as well.

And so the idea was that when people come in and register, we had to sign their name and then pick a candy. So we had three different types of candies and then on the, we had these high tops. tables, uh, where we would have these signs that Diane and her son made of the candy, like the picture. And then they laminated them and it was like her little project with her son as well.

And apparently they had a really great time also because it was Halloween. So, you know, it was all like themed and they made these like colorful backgrounds. I mean, it was just super cute. And so, yeah, we had those. And then basically, you know, we told people like, feel free to eat the candy, [00:17:00] but keep the wrapper.

Uh, and so that was kind of like a fun thing. And he could only pick one.

That was the rule. Um, and so yeah, and then on each table we had basically three topics. And so we had a 10 minutes. And for each 10 minutes, they could choose a topic to kind of discuss at that table. And then you could shift around if you want to, you didn't have to. And then. Discuss another topic. And so we had the topics to kind of guide the conversation, but we also left it for the people to decide what they find, you know, interesting, most interesting of the topics.

Some people moved, some people stayed, you know, it's really was very kind of organic that way. And I think that also was very welcomed by by, uh, by people. There were people making notes, exchanging information, emails. Um, I mean, I'm actually talking with two women tomorrow. Um, yeah. To, to talk about some research that we can do together.

So[00:18:00]

that's so cool. Yeah, from the networking event. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so it was really nice. And I think also what Mikaela mentioned with the books, people were so excited. So, I mean, we were worried that people wouldn't want to fill out the survey, but like everyone was filling out the survey and they're like, where do I get the book?

Where do I get the book? You know? So yeah, it was, uh, it was very, very good.

Michaela Tally: Yeah. Cause we gave away over a hundred books. So. It was great. And then Diane Darling was great during the networking because she brought these maps how to work a room to actually have one of those on my office wall now, because postdocs are introverts, and they go to conferences and they don't always know what to do.

And then she had these little like cards like business card size with tips on networking. With double sided and they were just great and great little takeaways and just reinforcing what she had talked about a panel, which I thought was [00:19:00] great, and she was helping moving between the tables and just helping people facilitate.

So that was fabulous to have her sort of. link the two parts of the event.

Asia Korecka-Roet: Yeah, we didn't realize that she would do that until like two days before the event. You know, we were really trying to be as organized as possible to avoid any surprises. And, uh, and we were expecting surprises, but there were a few of these last moment things that were like, Okay, now that's what's happening.

Michaela Tally: It was, there were definitely a lot of moving parts, but we had a great team and everybody, you know, was just so helpful.

Lilit Garibyan: I mean, you could definitely feel the energy in the room for networking. It was like, really buzzing, even like, Kate emailed back and commented on that. I mean, everybody kind of could see that people were so into it.

I mean, I think towards the end, we literally had to kick people out because they were [00:20:00] taking stuff away. I wanted to stay. I know there were a bunch of people who wanted to stay, but everything was gone. Um, but still, you know, like, I think that speaks volumes to it. The power of connection and just like belonging and it was so much fun.

And yes, we had surprises. It was great. I actually, it was better than I had imagined.

Asia Korecka-Roet: It was,

Michaela Tally: it was. And I feel like we planned for the surprises we had. The planning was done so well with everyone. And we sort of had the space to allow for the surprises that occurred during the panel and, and just the timing of everything, you know, you do a minute by minute timeline, and then it all blows up in the middle, but it all, it all ends on time.

Everyone's happy. And so it's all great, certainly from the front of the house. Nobody [00:21:00] knew about stuff we were panicking behind the scenes about, and that's, that's a great, I think, sign of the amount of dedication and organization that went into this event.

Asia Korecka-Roet: And also all the members and also members from our community engagement committee who were not involved in the organization part of the event, uh, let's say throughout the year, then volunteered to come.

To the event early, help us set up. We had people say, okay, I can do, you know, I'm volunteering. What do you need me to do? So they were assigned to specific small tasks. I think as a first time event, this was a big success. So that's, that is also what we really want that led already mentioned this kind of past the torch and continue this to make this more of a regular thing, a kind of a culture of women at Harvard to, to be able to meet.

And when we were pitching that idea during the conference. Everyone's so excited about the prospect of doing this again and being part of [00:22:00] this again.

Michaela Tally: Yeah, that was one of the best things about the ending of the evening was Lilit coming up and saying she had just talked to some of the folks from CCW and they We're really excited to start planning the next one over in Cambridge, which was, it felt like a huge win, because that was the goal, to keep it going.

Hardeep Ranu: As we've been hearing about the experiences of our guests, I think you'll notice how much assurance, commitment, and drive was involved in putting this event together. I usually ask guests what their professional and personal goals are. But this time, I asked them what their takeaways were from organizing the event.

You'll hear first from Mikayla, then Lelit, and then Asha. I'd say

Michaela Tally: for me, Michaela, my job and sort of what I do is very, um, logistics oriented. It's very people oriented, but a lot, about half of my job is managing events [00:23:00] and a lot of moving parts. I think half of this, half of the preparation of this event and what made it so successful was not the logistics part.

It was actually the months of brainstorming between the committee members on who to invite, you know, who to get for speakers. How did, how the event should run? And at one point I got a little like, Oh my gosh, we're just going to keep brainstorming forever. And I'm like, I need to get, I need to start making lists and getting stuff done.

Cause that, so it was a good lesson for me to go trust the process. And remember that logistics can come together, but if you don't spend the time to put the process in place and think through the event and all the different aspects of it, it might be too chaotic. It might not actually ever happen. So that was a good lesson for me is to trust the process more and an extra month of brainstorming is going to be okay.

Lilit Garibyan: I guess I could go next. I mean, what I learned from the process is that good things [00:24:00] take time and effort and dedication. We spent a lot of time on it. And, you know, you can't expect something like this to just happen by just wanting it. You actually have to put in the time and the effort. And also I learned that really when we do this, we're like forging a bridge, right?

That unites us with other people from diverse paths and diverse backgrounds. And we have to be open to listening to their ideas and their suggestions. I remember feeling a lot of times, Oh, we're making progress. We're making progress. And then it was like. Oh no, we're going backwards like a few weeks and then I'll be like, wait, like, but you have to listen to people's opinions.

So like we change things around a lot. And I think that made people feel like that they're part of the process as opposed to somebody just saying, no, this is how we're going to do it, take it or leave it. And that is what made it successful that, you know, we were open to last minute, let's say switching.[00:25:00]

Faculty moderator to a staff moderator. Um, also we were open to, you know, adjusting and shifting when that staff moderator was like, well, I'm getting a big award. I'm not going to be there. So, like, we didn't really panic that much. We kind of just found a way to pivot and change things. And I know Asya worked a lot on the model for the networking, you know, and we would change it and, you know, we really got input from everyone.

We would send out surveys and get people's opinion. Um, and it's important to have. That done correctly and that I learned from our other co chairs because that's what makes people feel like that they're part of this and that their time, their vote, and their participation counts.

Asia Korecka-Roet: Yeah, this is Asia. I wanted to echo both of these.

I think for me, especially was [00:26:00] this, the fact that this committee was made of most of us, we didn't know each other ahead of before that. And it was women who wanted to do something, accomplish it and do it well. And everyone had a different perspective and experience that brought into the table. And that was amazing to me to see that we are all extremely busy because all of us are very ambitious women.

Um, and yet we still put the efforts that was needed and the energy to the table. And so me, sometimes it's being kind of, I want to just go forward and organize stuff. I really enjoyed the feeling of like, I is there to also. Go on, continue, uh, independently and together, right? Because we all had our tasks.

So things were happening and that was really great to see that things were happening. Well, you know, we didn't have to take care of everything ourselves. That's a personal [00:27:00] growth for me to really kind of, you know, let other people do also. So that was great. And that really brought the diversity. To this event as well from all the different perspectives, but I also remember we had to just at some point we had to put our foot down like we have to make this decision now.

And that was also good to to have a feel of when that was okay to do. Because we've listened, we've, you know, and discussed, and, and so I think everyone of all the whole committee had a moment where they're like, okay, this will just happen because, you know, this is my part, or this needs to, this is, yeah, we had these weekend emails between the three of us going like, ah, and then.

Things happen. So it was good.

Lilit Garibyan: I would just sum it up by that Howard Schultz quote, which says that when you're surrounded by people who share a passionate commitment around a common purpose, anything is possible. So I think like our work, all of us together as a committee showed that if, [00:28:00] if it's something valuable that people are passionate about, you know, you can make it happen despite the challenges.

And this was a perfect example of that.

Hardeep Ranu: So

as we bring this conversation to a close, I want to thank Michaela, Aja, and Lilit for sharing their wisdom and experiences. But before I say goodbye, I want to reflect on some of my takeaways from today's episode. In listening to these three individuals reflect on their event that took a year to plan, I can hear in each of their voices the pride and delight of how successful it was.

It's a huge undertaking to organize an event of this magnitude. And it was a hit because of the determination, dedication, and deliberation. That was taken in planning the event. Lilith's vision behind it was terrific. Michaela used her superb [00:29:00] organizing skills to manage the event. And Azure's work in designing the networking portion was innovative.

So that it was structured and yet still organic.

This event showed how collaboration, teamwork and vision can yield a fantastic result. Congratulations guys for a job well done.

Join me where we delve into the world of postdoctoral training with Dr. Jim Gould, Director of Postdoctoral Affairs at HMS. With over a decade of experience shaping the career trajectories of postdocs, Jim shares insights gained from his extensive work in empowering postdocs to excel. I also talk with Jim about his book “Making the Most of the Postdoc | Strategically Advancing Your Early Career” in which he draws from personal experiences and offers a roadmap for navigating the postdoc journey from start to finish. 

Transcript: 

Hardeep Ranu: [00:00:00] Hi, today we are joined by Jim Gould, who is the director of the HMS and HSDM office for postdoctoral fellows. So Jim, welcome. Thank you for agreeing to be on the podcast today.

Jim Gould: Thank you very much for the invitation. I've been looking forward to, to being invited and I have a few friends have already been interviewed on the podcast.

So I was looking forward to, to being a part of it and thanks for the invitation.

Hardeep Ranu: And so do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself and give us a quick background on how you became, came to be the director of the postdoc office?

Jim Gould: Yes, of course. So I, like I said, like you said, introduction. [00:01:00] I'm Jim Gold.

I'm the director for postdoctoral affairs at the moment. I recently got a promotion. So that was, it's been 12 years in the making. I started. Thank you very much. I started in this position in June of 2011 and have been growing in the position and growing in my knowledge of what to do at HMMS at Harvard, but also across.

The, the US for our postdoc population. So I was a postdoc myself, and one of the things that that helped me in this job and has helped me in this job is understanding what a, what a postdoc was. Uh, and for those maybe on the call or, or, or listening that might not know what postdocs do or why they do what they do, their, their PhDs mostly, sometimes MDs or MD PhDs that follow their, their graduate work.

into another lab or maybe even another area, maybe another research area to get [00:02:00] more experience, more, a few more skills, maybe a few more publications. But what I have found out through my experience being a postdoc, but also helping postdocs, it's also a very good time to explore interests. Find, uh, and grow new skills and figure out what the next steps might, might be.

So in, in my position here, uh, in the postdoc office is helping our postdoc population both on the quad and our hospital affiliates figure out not only what, what it means to be a good postdoc and do good research. As a postdoc here, but also what it means and how to do it. Well, how to transition into the next position.

So I got my Ph. D. at the University of Louisville in Kentucky. That was 6 years of hard work and then I postdoc at the National Cancer Institute in Frederick, Maryland for 4 years. I actually did 2 separate postdocs there. And while I was postdocing, I was researching [00:03:00] my first postdoc was kind of a fish out of water in my graduate work.

I was working on misanthro cells, kidney cells and dosing them with high glucose and trying to mimic as best I could high glucose and hyperglycemia and then figure out signaling cascades to figure out how it affected TGF beta secretion in a very specific kidney cell. So I moved as a, from a graduate student into postdoc and was in a genomics lab and really had no idea what was going on.

I had to learn a completely new language and it took me at least a year to catch up. And then I was trying to figure out things. And while I was doing that, I realized I need help as a postdoc. I don't know if I could do what. what is required in genomics to understand, uh, moving on into my next stage of career.

So I started reaching out, building a community, uh, of postdocs and, [00:04:00] and other trainees at the National Cancer Institute. And there are two campuses of the NCI, one in Frederick and one in, in Bethesda. So I became connected to a larger community. Found another postdoc that was a much better fit, both scientifically, mentoring, as well as my interest, and it was, um, cancer metabolism, which was a little more closely aligned to what I was doing in graduate school.

And I was like, okay, this is it. This is where I need to be. I'm going to publish, and I'm going to move on and do a, you know, scientific research career. Meanwhile, in the back of my mind, I'm like, that's not really what you want to do, Jim. And what you're doing as a postdoc, building your community, being part of the Postdoc Association of Fellows and Young Investigators Association at the NCI, sort of just doing committee work, running volunteer seminar series, getting, you know, fellow postdocs together. And also by happenstance, giving advice, postdocs and graduate students would come to me and say, Hey, Jim, what do you [00:05:00] think about this?

And of course, you know, you know, having this invitation to, to share what I'm doing on, you know, with the, with the podcast, I'm like, Oh, sure, I can ad lib and give advice and do what I feel like, you know, is good advice. Meanwhile, I was having those same questions. So in helping my, my colleagues, my friends and other postdocs and fellows, both in graduate school and as a postdoc, I was figuring things out for myself.

So. While doing some research, you know, actual bench research, I was doing a lot of different things administratively, growing, uh, my reputation as someone who can bring people together. I was sitting on committees, I was being invited as a postdoc to sit in rooms and at tables that many postdocs didn't have a chance to at that moment.

And then I realized, it finally dawned on me, I like this better than research. I get more satisfaction at the end of the day, having done. You know, sitting on a [00:06:00] committee and figured out a problem. I liked the scientific problem thinking problem solving, but I didn't actually like doing the experiments to see if it was actually going to work.

So at the end of the day, I was like, this is what I, I, I want to be doing and realize I could do it for a job and eventually a career. So I started being a bit more strategic in the things that I was doing and then being asked to do, saying yes to certain things, saying yes more often than saying no, but saying no, be like, this isn't where I want to be, I want to be doing kind of postdoc affairs in general, or graduate or trainee affairs, and building skills, getting experience, looking for a few jobs, finding job titles that made sense, talking to people who, who had jobs that I was interested in or had interesting paths to those positions, reaching out to them, just talking with them and then sharing my story as much as possible, my interest with anybody who would listen, [00:07:00] realize, you know, basically planting seeds.

And one of the things that happened across some time, because as a postdoc, I was afforded some time to figure it out. So it took me about four, four and a half years. as a postdoc to land a position, this position at Harvard Medical School. And when this position came available, I had already sort of buried my, my nose in my postdoc work saying, I really need to get something productive, like a paper out of my postdoc.

And it was at that time, because I had planted seeds, I had talked to everybody, four or five emails landed in my inbox in the, in, in the same week saying, Hey, Jim, this job looks like. Something you'd be interested in. It wasn't a job listing that I had found. It was my friends and my network sending it to me directly saying this job looks interesting, you should probably look into it.

So I applied, interviewed, got the job offer that was [00:08:00] within, I applied, interviewed and started in June. I think it was within three months. It was, it was a very quick transition from postdoc into directing a postdoc office. So that was kind of my path. not knowing what I wanted to do, not knowing that this was a career path for me, and then figuring it out because I had some time as a postdoc and understanding that, bringing that with me in this position for the last 12 or 13 years now, realizing that postdocs sometimes just need some time.

They just need some practical advice. And that's what I try to bring grounded, practical advice to our postdocs, as well as good policies and guidelines that, that Postdocs may be affected. So again, as director of postdoc affairs, I'm invited to sit on committees invited by the dean or by my boss or to say, Hey, what are postdocs doing?

What do they need? What are they thinking right now? [00:09:00] Whereas, you know, they may be making in the past decisions without consideration of what the trainee population needs.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay. And so if I were a new postdoc and I came to you and I said, Hey, Jim, I'm here. I've been here a few months at Harvard Medical School.

You know, what should be one of the first things that I do?

Jim Gould: One of the first things that you should do as a new postdoc, hopefully you've been invited to orientation. You know, our office puts on an orientation, but the first thing you should do is try to connect with your community. Within your department, within your laboratory, within the larger postdoc community across HMS and Harvard, there are upwards, this is a rough estimate, but it's in the ballpark, there are roughly 7, 000 Harvard affiliated postdocs in Boston and Cambridge across all of our affiliated [00:10:00] institutions.

And all the hospitals. So there is a very large postdoc population in this area, and maybe one of the largest in the world, I might say, the largest concentration of Harvard postdocs, but also postdocs in general, because there are many other institutions that have postdoc in the Boston, Cambridge, Eastern Massachusetts area.

So the first thing you should do. especially as an international postdoc, which make up about 50 percent of our postdoc population in the university system and HMS. Get connected with your community. It doesn't have to be postdoc only community, but get connected with your community. Don't, you know, get yourself isolated.

Don't make it so that you feel that you're the only person that can help you through your, your postdoc training connect. And, and get to know others, be visible in your, in your community, be visible in your laboratory, [00:11:00] be visible in your department. That was one of the things that helped me while I was trying to figure things out, even in graduate school into, into postdoc, I reached out and met everybody.

I literally walked around offices, walked around labs. Sometimes it's not possible with our ever growing virtual world, but just connect, introduce yourself and follow up. I think that's probably the first thing and maybe the most often thing that you should be doing, not just as a postdoc, but I think as a professional in general.

Hardeep Ranu: So what if I'm painfully shy and find it really hard to do that kind of stuff? What then?

Jim Gould: What then? Then you're painfully shy and you still find that hard to do. But you might not have to do it on a very large scale, one person a day, one person a week, maybe two or three people a month. But I think in order to grow professionally, you're still going to have as [00:12:00] a scientist, as a postdoc, as a future investigator of science, or someone who transitioned away from the bench like myself into an administrative position or, or elsewhere, you were, you're always going to have to communicate with people.

And one of the The ways to think about it is, is not to say, I have to grow my professional network in order to survive. You should be thinking about it as, here's someone that I would like to meet and have a conversation with. And then the follow up and then the relationship building happens. And then that's where things might grow into more of a back and forth.

Or someone, uh, as a men, you know, could be, you know, developed into a mentor mentor role or an advocate role if they don't know you or they don't know who you are. They may not pass things on to you, they may not call on you, but some of the things that could be helpful instead of maybe [00:13:00] cold calling, or just walking up to somebody in.

In the hallway and say, hey, my name's Jim, or my name is Hardy. I'm doing this, what are you up to? Sometimes that is intimidating. You might do that anyway to practice because you're going to be going to conferences. You're going to be going into different departments and institutions as you're interviewing as you're going on the job market.

But there are many things that you that postdocs they were trainees do anyway that's part of the quote unquote job of training as a scientist, you go to weekly or monthly seminar series. Do you sit with new people? Do you introduce yourself to anyone new in the room? Do you ask a question? Of the presenter, whether they are internal presenter or an external invited speaker, you ask a question, or if you don't do any of those, do you follow up with the speaker with, Hey, I had a question, I didn't get a chance to ask it, follow up by email or, or follow up in the hallway, or [00:14:00] maybe there's a, a lunch opportunity.

So just be curious about somebody else's work or somebody else's interest. and they will in turn almost automatically be interested in what you're doing. At the very least, just to be polite, but most likely they're going to be curious because you're curious about them. So come at it from a perspective of curiosity rather than I need to meet people and kind of deescalate and lower the stakes of, of having, having to have to network with people, but you're going to be communicating and working with people the rest of your career.

Hardeep Ranu: One of the things that I have found is that, so I'm not a kind of person who can go up to people and introduce myself and do that, but one of the things that I've found is easiest for me is a, is in a new environment is, I'll go sit in the lunchroom, something like that, and eat [00:15:00] lunch. And maybe it's a, a one for the entire floor or something.

And that might be a way in which. I just sort of meet people from other labs. For me, it feels better because it feels more organic, you know, and in that way, I found it really useful. Other ways is, you know, back when I was in the lab, let's say I ran out of a particular reagent, then it's a question of going to the lab next door and saying to someone who appears to be friendly or, you know, is the lab manager or something saying, Hey.

Do you have any of this? I really need some for my experiment. And that's a way to kind of introduce yourself to somebody new. And then it becomes like, when you're in the corridor, you say, Hey, and it just kind of, it's a slow build up from there rather than Feeling like, like you said, like feeling like you need to do it all straight away.[00:16:00]

Jim Gould: Absolutely. I completely agree. And I like how you describe kind of short circuiting those, um, maybe larger stakes or someone like me, who's a bit more extroverted walk, literally walking across the hall and just introducing myself to the entire lab. Whereas you're taking advantage of common areas. And that's why they're there.

They're common areas. So people can actually bump in into each other and and meet and chat or not. Right. We have lunch, you know, lunch rooms and cafeterias all over campus and most of us might just eat lunch in our labs or the the corridor off the lab or in our offices. Whereas we should probably be going every maybe once a week or a couple of times a month to the cafeteria either bringing our food or buying food there and just Yeah.

Yeah. Randomly bumping into people or making eye contact and waving to people that we know, maybe shepherding them over or inviting them to sit down with us. The other thing that you brought up was, you have a specific need or a specific [00:17:00] ask. And you might, and you may have heard of someone that could help you or you say, well, the lab across across the way does similar work to us.

I'll go over there and ask somebody. So another way to meet somebody is to have a specific thing in mind to ask them and you're going back to just making sure you're meeting people and staying connected and building network and communicating. Sometimes you might have to make up a reason to ask somebody or to meet somebody.

And hopefully it's not a completely made up like a lie reason, but it's based on some real need or based in reality saying, you know, you might say, well, I, I need to meet someone who knows bioinformatics and you say, well, I saw. You know, I saw this person give a presentation that involved bioinformatics in their presentation or in their work, I might reach out to them, meet them, walk up to them and say, [00:18:00] Can you, you know, can you tell me a little bit about about your work, or can you refer me to anyone that could be helpful.

So the other thing that you could be doing in meeting people is also asking for references or referrals, not references, referrals, where you're saying, you know, anyone else that might be cool and interesting or good to talk to, as you are being sort of that one on one interaction or, you know, one person in a large group, there, there are many ways to, to approach it, but I think coming from a mindset of this is just a one to one or a small group of human interaction.

And everybody could be a little awkward and that's okay. Kind of normalizing that I think is going to be helpful.

Hardeep Ranu: Yes, and I think it's one of those things that where you can never underestimate the value in building up these networks in whatever way that you can. And, [00:19:00] you know, like I said, I'm not. The big extrovert kind of person.

I'm more of a, I want to be extrovert, but, you know, but I'm more on the introverted side, but that still doesn't stop me from building up a network. It's, it's just something that I actually been pointed out to me that, that is something that comes somewhat naturally. And it's just. But the sole reason of I want to get to know people from all over the university or whatever, whenever I get the chance to, I'll do what you said.

I'll go to a seminar or I'll, I'll sign up for a committee. Because that's a way for me to get to know people in other areas of the university or the medical school or wherever. And you never know when you will cross paths with that person, but in a completely different context and how useful it is. I think that's a really [00:20:00] important point to me.

Jim Gould: It really is Hardeep. And one of the things I want to point out is you have created an entire podcast just to do that very thing. So instead of broadcasting to a, to an open room, you invite one or two or three people in and, Hey, let me ask you some questions and get to know you a bit deeper. That's, that's a great way to go about things, or you can do it.

In a large seminar room and say, Hey, I'm hard deep or I'm Jim. Here's what I'm doing. And here's what I'm interested in. And you might get a couple of takers and you have a side conversation, but looking for opportunities to join groups like the J. C. S. W. An opportunity of a group that might have a specific mission that aligns with your mission and values.

Just walking into the room, you automatically have a room full of potential, uh, colleagues, friends, mentors, uh, and a network kind of built in it. Sometimes it just takes [00:21:00] going to a thing. Or, or being invited to a thing and just following up. So, uh, it, it's not, it shouldn't be scary, but I, I can completely understand how it can be intimidating walking into a room.

Um, for example, uh, JCSW, which I, uh, proud member for, for many years. I forget when I first started going to meetings and became an official member, but I walked in and I think I was the only male in the room. For a couple meetings and then that that male population grew to I think maybe as many as five in the room, but it was it was cool because it was a perspective that I hadn't seen before and a network that I didn't realize that I had access to.

And information and camaraderie that I was unfamiliar with. Until I started going a bit more regularly. But I was welcomed with, with open arms from the minute I walked in the room and I went for a couple of reasons. [00:22:00] I went to meetings one. They had lunch, which, you know, sometimes just is enough to get somebody in the room as though.

Okay. It has lunch. It's offering a presentation on the topic that I'm interested in. And in my position as director postdoc affairs or directors director of the postdoc office. I think my postdocs. Should have access and come to these types of meetings and build this type of network, but I in advocating that should also see what's going on with this group and immediately again was welcomed.

And then I think within a year or two, I was helping run the community engagement subcommittee, which was a lot of fun.

Hardeep Ranu: So what if you know like, as you said, and I'm sure there are many. People are in the same boat, but where you find yourself in a post op where you're out of your depth. What kind of advice do you have for people who feel as if they're drowning?[00:23:00]

Jim Gould: Yeah, so if you feel like you're drowning, ask for help. You know, look for the lifeguard, if we're going to continue the metaphor. Or look for someone who's throwing the lifesaver vest or the little round thing that they send out into the water. You don't have to do this alone. If you feel out of your depth, that's because sometimes you are.

And that's the whole point of research, is that you're finding out new things that nobody else knew before. So it's, it's part of the scientific process. It's part of the training. If you knew everything coming in as a PhD, if you knew everything coming in as a postdoc, Then you would move directly into a tenured professorship, and that's not how things work.

You'd have to build up your knowledge while adding to the vast knowledge of science out there in the field, and it's part of the process of being out of your depth, of learning, of making mistakes, [00:24:00] but also coming back with new, new ideas or different ideas or different approaches or just. Sheer tenacity and resilient, but I think one of the things that I can take from your question is if you're feeling out of your depth and that's all you feel, you don't have, you don't feel like you're moving forward or having successes mixed with some failures and learning opportunities.

That's again, being able to recognize that is important and making sure it doesn't go on for, for extended periods of time. And that's why I keep coming back to and will always go back to the first piece of advice you asked me when I postdoc steps on campus. What's the first thing they should do is introduce yourself to as many people as possible.

So when you are floundering, when you feel out of your depth, you can connect, reconnect with your community. reach out to people who may have gone through the process similar as you and can say it's going to be all right or how can I help you. So just [00:25:00] understanding that you don't have to do it alone and understanding that there are people that have faced similar obstacles as you and have survived that can possibly help you, mentor you, advocate for you.

And there are other resources again if if it is a an unsalvageable situation. There are other resources like my office or the ombuds you can reach out to and have maybe difficult conversations about the actual situation you're in. The whole, there's a whole research infrastructure or an administrative infrastructure for researchers at Harvard and HMS that supports you and is supposed to support you while you're having those.

Scientific endeavors and learning opportunities, things may switch or shift into actual crises. And again, we also have infrastructure there for you.

Hardeep Ranu: So,

so shifting gears a little [00:26:00] bit, you know, you said there's 7000. Postdocs somewhere in that region, right? So I'm pretty sure there's not 7, 000 faculty positions right for them to go into.

And from what I have read is that the number of postdocs or number of people getting PhDs is increasing. I don't know if it's exponentially but by a lot. Right. But there aren't the faculty positions for all these PhDs to move into, you know, postdocs as well to move into. So one of the things is. Also, what kind of advice would you give to people who are thinking about the next step, you know, like, I have a PhD, but neither of us are in an academic track.

We're not faculty, we're staff, but yet we found. Positions that we enjoy

Jim Gould: The advice I would I give is [00:27:00] to try to think as broadly as possible and in times of major decision points or major transition points, whether it's career or personal or other kind of professional decision points or or transition points.

Remember that there should be time and space for self reflection, an actual kind of accounting of interests, skills, and values that you either confirm or reaffirm or realize that there may be a pivot needed, or you again affirm or reaffirm that you are on a correct trajectory or path. Allow yourself some time for that self reflection of understanding.

Your skills, interests, and values. And that if you follow your interests and continue to hone and grow your skills while also having, you know, kind of your guiding principles and core [00:28:00] values, if what you're doing currently matches there and energizes you, you may continue to go forward and looking in the future, what would allow you to continue to grow skills, follow interests while also aligning your core values and guiding principles.

If it's. An academic faculty job, that's fine. Continue to go towards that, but understand that there are some expectations and credentials necessary to make that transition. Publications being probably first and foremost, but also a track record of funding, or at least attempted funding, grant writing. But also again, you should have, this goes for all postdocs and trainees, you should be building that reputation and your skill set.

And not just through publications are you communicating your skill sets and your accolades and your achievements again, you keep coming back to connecting to your community, making sure that you are sharing your discoveries, [00:29:00] your scientific interest with the rest of your community, who will eventually either be your colleagues or your bosses or your trainees moving forward.

So coming back to the question, what, what advice do I give for postdocs kind of exploring next career stages? As you said, there aren't 7, 000 faculty positions open every year. Understanding that there's kind of this pipeline, there are 7, 000 current postdocs at Harvard HMS, but not 7, 000 going in the market at the same time.

Realizing that there's this timeline in a pipeline, but faculty is not the only option for our PhDs and postdocs. As the two of us can attest, there are many things that PhDs and postdocs go on to do. And again, we're very fortunate to be in the Boston, Cambridge, Eastern Massachusetts area with a vast ecosystem of entrepreneurship.

Biotech startups [00:30:00] and pharmaceutical companies. I would say more than half of our postdocs go on to do research or transition into industry in certain other capacities. Many of our postdocs also realized as part of their training and that exploration time that I mentioned earlier as a postdoc realizing that maybe non science but science adjacent type of positions are.

You know, similar administrative positions like, like, like mine or moving into publishing, scientific writing, but also the, the private sector moving into business consulting or, or venture capitalism. So there's a lot of, of opportunity for a PhD trained scientists with several years of postdoc experience to collect a lot of transferable skills.

that are viable in the workforce, not just in academic research.

Hardeep Ranu: So it seems to me that [00:31:00] what you're saying is, as a postdoc, one of the most important things is to have that group of people network, whatever you want to call it, as almost like a foundation. And then as you're going through your postdoc, is to be continually kind of thinking about What it is you want to do next, it's sort of not a, okay, I'm going to do this and then I'm getting to the end of this, what now it's a continual process.

Jim Gould: Yeah, you, you summarize it perfectly. It's a continual process, a realization that you shouldn't just be interacting and networking with your. Your mentor or your, your P. I. as many postdocs, you know, call their mentors or faculty mentors. It should be realizing interacting with your peers and those who might be a bit, you know, junior to you because your peers are going to eventually they're going to [00:32:00] continue to be your peers and eventually colleagues out into the workforce or into industry.

Or academia or all of the above. They're the ones that's going to that are going to be reviewing your papers are going to be reviewing your grant submissions and you're going to be reviewing theirs. So understanding that if you have this perspective of continual growth of maybe a growth mindset of of seeing challenges as learning opportunities as growth opportunities seeing people as as humans and part of this fabric of.

Scientific enterprise and realizing that they have similar or the same issues or or imposter syndrome or feelings that you have or will have or have had in the past that just having a connected scientific community is going to make science better, and it's going to make you potentially a better scientist or a better administrator [00:33:00] or or just a better person or professional.

So, yes. Throughout my academic and scholastic training all the way into all the way back into undergraduate work or undergraduates, you know, college at clearing University of Pennsylvania, I instinctively or automatically just built a team around me, understanding again, trying to be as self reflective as possible, trying to, you know, maintain some level of humility by by Saying that I have limitation, professional limitations, skills, limitations, communication limitations, and by having friends and colleagues and peers around me connected in a genuine, authentic way, they can help me overcome those limitations or they compliment my limitations and we as a group can move forward and do some very cool things.

And I did that. [00:34:00] In my undergraduate, I did that in graduate school. I had a team or friends or cohorts, and it was an exchange of ideas, and I became a trusted peer and confidant for some of them, and they, for me, And I did it again as a postdoc. So just building a team, building that foundation and realizing that they are going to be your peers throughout your career.

And many of them are still friends now that I text, uh, say Merry Christmas to you today. I send them Christmas cards. I check in with them. I, I met their children, you know, someone I actually haven't seen in person in over 20 years. I still am in constant communication with. Because way back in undergraduate, we had a connection and we maintained it.

So the, the next hardest step in building a community and making connection is maintaining it and making sure you [00:35:00] follow up on a regular basis.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay, and one of the things that I have noticed is that you've written a book, right? Yes, I have. Yes, yes. So, what is the name of the book? And also, tell me about the writing process.

How was that for you?

Jim Gould: So, the book is Making the Most of the Postdoc, Strategically Advancing Your Early Career. And even though it has postdoc in the title, I hope I have written it. in such a way that it's accessible for anyone who is in a, maybe a science or science adjacent career path or, or professional path.

And it's based on my experience, both as a PhD student and postdoc, but also as an administrator going on, as I said, almost 13 years now. And hopefully it's just sort of not too high level of esoteric advice and philosophy, but more about actionable. and reasonable and practical [00:36:00] advice on how to navigate difficult situations in a growth mindset kind of way.

In the introduction, I share my story a bit more in depth than I have in the introduction here. Basically admitting that I've made many, many, many mistakes, and it's okay to make those mistakes, especially if you're continuing to grow from them and learn from them. But you also asked about the writing process, and I, I'll share the story about how I was invited to submit, uh, for this, for this book.

Uh, it's something that I've always wanted to do. It's like, I gotta write a book. I just want to write a book. I'm not sure about what, about my life or about my work. And the opportunity came, uh, because I was, uh, invited to review a book proposal from this publisher. Someone had written a proposal for publication on kind of the international postdoc.

And I'm like, yes, this is a topic that needs to be explored. It needs more [00:37:00] publications around it, and it needs to be more kind of growth mindset, rather than what we kind of hear in, in a lot of the science and nature articles about the plight of the postdoc or the postdoc crisis or all of that. That is happening.

Those are difficult situations to navigate. But I would say, in my experience, most postdocs aren't facing crisis. So, but for those that are, you know, how do we help them? So the, the proposal wasn't fully fleshed out. The idea was there, but it just wasn't, the proposal itself wasn't fully fleshed out. And I gave very in depth feedback, specific feedback, you know, maybe this, maybe that, and the publisher turned around and asked me if I would submit a proposal for a postdoc, a book about postdoc.

And I was like, sure, let me do that. So I put a hefty, a proposal in as I could. And the [00:38:00] it's interesting, the table of contents that I submitted as a proposal in October of 2021 is almost the same that got published in September of 2023. So I had sort of the topics in mind and I knew what I wanted to write about the hardest part of the writing process.

wasn't the actual writing. It was collecting everything that I had already put together. So I had little articles here and little writings here. I had presentations and PowerPoints. I had podcasts and interviews, transcripts that I had, and I didn't want those to go to waste. So the first thing that I did was I collected as much as I could that touched on the topics that I wanted to cover in the book.

And that was probably the first six or seven months, just collecting it, massaging it. pulling it out, transcribing what I needed to finish transcribing, and then fixing the transcription, because how I speak in podcasts or [00:39:00] interviews isn't how I, I write, and it's not how people read. So I basically had to translate what I was saying into actual written word, and then I got the basic structure.

I had every, I had a little bit on every chapter, except I think the last chapter, it's sort of the exit chapter, because the book is based on beginning, middle, and end of postdoc, and those little pieces of the postdoc that, or the training experience. That postdocs move through sometimes without their own knowledge, just because time passes and work happens.

So collecting that, massaging it, putting it together, having basic structures of the chapters, overall ideas of what I wanted to write about, and then rearranging everything. Because one of my, one presentation, for example, covered several chapters. You know, so I would go into that presentation. Transcribe it, write it out and then pull it apart and put it in the, in the correct [00:40:00] spot.

And then I basically went chapter by chapter, finishing and writing that chapter. And I would, I have to say my publishers were, were very hands off almost to the point where I had to check in and say, do I still have a, a book contract? Do you still want this? And they're like, absolutely, yes, send it in as soon as possible.

I missed my, my 1st, October 2022 deadline. And, you know, I got it in in January, I believe, so I was two or three months late, but those two or three months were probably the most productive in sort of polishing the writing, because I was able to, I would say each chapter is probably four or five thousand words ish.

So the book comes out to be like 45, maybe 50, 000 words, 10 chapters, 115 pages. At the beginning of the process, I was totally overwhelmed because they were like, how many pages do you think it's going to be? How many figures do you think you're going to include? And I was like, I don't know, 200 pages, [00:41:00] 20 figures.

I don't, I honestly don't know because I knew what I wanted to talk about, but I'm like, I don't know how it's going to flesh out and how it's going to sort of spread across the document or the manuscript. So I think I ended up putting in like seven figures and it was only a hundred and ten pages. I was like, this is it.

Like, this is as much as I can write. If I write any more, it becomes redundant. So I, hopefully I honed it to the point where, you know, it wasn't too repetitive, but hopefully there was a, there's a theme across the book about, again, being connected to your community while facing the, the hardships and learning opportunities, uh, of, Being a postdoc and I had, you know, a couple of friends read the, read the manuscript, gave me a lot of feedback at the support of my, my wife and daughter.

Uh, at the time, my daughter was also publishing her own book and she beat me to publication by several months and she's quite proud of that. So that that's kind of the process. It was fun to submit a [00:42:00] proposal, intimidating to realize how much I still had to write, very difficult to pull all the materials that I kind of already made.

Reorganize it and then basically rewrite it all anyway. But at the end I would do it again, but in the middle of it, it was not a fun process. Again, you know, having finished it, I'm like, Oh, that was pretty cool. But, you know, sitting down for two or three hours every night was hard for me because that's not how I work, uh, on a usual basis.

I'm kind of a, kind of a hummingbird and go and do 10 different things at once. or across, you know, a specific timeline, but sitting down and just writing for three hours was difficult. And then I realized after a while of doing that, I was able to get into a writing flow very quickly just by, you know, knowing I had to write something, but also listening to, to music that didn't have lyrics.

It's just instrumental music. [00:43:00] So, and I pulled that trick from when I wrote my dissertation way back in 2000, 2007.

Hardeep Ranu: Writing's one of those things that you have to sit there in front of the computer and find a way to start and then Once you get started, you get going and it's fine, kind of, but you have to get started, I think, is one of the most important things that I've certainly encountered whenever I've had to do writing, when I've taken my, the writing classes and stuff, that it's sort of sitting there in front of the blank screen going, okay, what am I going to write about?

Jim Gould: Yeah, I've said that many times to anyone who would listen is for me and for many others. The scariest thing is a blank page. So even, even when I had a blank page or when I had to write something sort of de novo, I copied and pasted something into it. So I had words on the page already. And then I kind of expand on those [00:44:00] words, even if it was like a one, One line or one word outline for each line or one word, sort of a prompt.

So for me, it was a little writing trick, just pull something in and just expand on that. And then I don't want to say the writing takes care of itself, but it was a lot easier than trying to fill a completely blank page. It's terrifying, at least for me. Right.

Hardeep Ranu: Often it's about just starting with your stream of consciousness.

Jim Gould: Yes. And not trying to edit that stream of consciousness while you're typing.

Hardeep Ranu: So we're kind of getting to the end of our time here. So there's two questions I always ask. One is what professional skills are you working on or you would like to work on? And what personal skills are you working on or would like to work on?

Jim Gould: All right. I'm trying to work on a lot of different professional skills because even for me now, as kind of a senior administrator, I I'm not sure what the next steps are for me. So I am interested, you know, in [00:45:00] building a podcast for career and professional development for PhDs. I'm interested in learning how ChPtGBT works, and how to actually incorporate it into my work, as well as incorporate it into Other, uh, workshops and, and trainings that I do for, for postdocs.

I am also in a certificate graduate certificate program at the Harvard extension school in organizational behavior, uh, hopefully with a concentration in, in like leadership and coaching. So those are kind of professional skills I'm working on. And a lot of those will bleed into personal growth as well.

Uh, on the personal level, I am in the middle of trying to buy a house. The house search is exhausting. I'm learning something new every time we go visit a house. Uh, we owned a house when I was a postdoc in Frederick many years ago and are looking again. So, you know, the home buying process is a personal [00:46:00] growth and a testament to patience.

And my daughter is a senior in high school and she's going off to college. So that will be an opportunity for a lot of personal growth, uh, for me and my wife, uh, maybe being empty nesters because, uh, my daughter, Lucy is a, such a huge part of our. our daily life. Her going off to college is exciting for us, but also a little bittersweet.

Hardeep Ranu: I think the third question that I would like to ask would be what, what do you wish you could do?

Jim Gould: What do I wish I could do? I wish I could just go to, um, maybe a cabin on the lake and go canoeing. That's what I wish I could do.

Hardeep Ranu: Would it be in the winter? Or in the summer, or where, where would it be?

Jim Gould: So, uh, I, I'm not a huge winter sports fan, so it might be summer or, or early fall, where at least in New England, uh, the weather's beautiful.

But if I were to go south, maybe it might be more of a year round

Hardeep Ranu: [00:47:00] thing. And is there anything that you wish I had asked you?

Jim Gould: Actually, nothing comes to mind at the moment. It seemed like a nice, good flowing conversation. Is there anything you wish I would have said?

Hardeep Ranu: I don't think so. No, I don't think so. I think We're good.

Yeah. Although I don't necessarily come into a conversation with an idea of what I would like you to say. It's, um,

because

yeah, that's not that's not the idea. Anyway, thank you. Yeah, I really appreciate the time you've taken to do this, and the great kind of thoughtful answers to the questions as well.

Jim Gould: I try and you know, just, it's got to be practical, otherwise it's not really implementable.

So I appreciate the questions, as well as the invitation to be on the podcast. Thank you very much.

Tara Lauriat: Harvard Program Director and The Essential Needs of Food Banks

Uncover the essential needs of food banks in this compelling podcast episode. My guest, Tara Lauriat, wears many hats - as a dedicated manager of St. Paul's food pantry in Harvard Square and as a Program Director in HMS's Office for Faculty Affairs, where she oversees promotions and appointments at the professorial level. Join me as she shares insights into the real needs of food banks, revealing what donations genuinely make a difference. 

Transcript:

Hardeep Ranu: [00:00:00] Hi, today we have Tara Lauriat, who is a Program Director in the Office for Faculty Affairs at Harvard Medical School. Tara, welcome today, and would you like to introduce yourself and tell us a bit more about you?

Tara Lauriat: Sure. Thanks for having me, Harjit. My name is Tara Laureate, as she said, and I work in the Office for Faculty Affairs at the Medical School.

I started in a research background, but now my focus is helping our faculty members to promoted and helping with faculty searches and similar roles.

Hardeep Ranu: I know you have had an interesting journey as to how you ended up in your current position. Do you want to go ahead and describe how you've ended up in this position?

Especially as you have a PhD. [00:01:00] And it's more of an administrative position rather than being lab or research focused.

Tara Lauriat: Well, first I should mention that the program director role, there are four of us on our team and now they've created additional program director roles. That position actually requires a PhD in biomedical or related social science.

With having some little bit of an administrative experience, at least enough to know that that's what you want to do as opposed to staying in the lab. So, I realized when I was in graduate school, I got my PhD in biomedical science, focusing on neuroscience. I was working in the lab. I wasn't very good in the lab.

I didn't have a lot of supervision, just the nature of the way my lab operated. So people didn't necessarily realize that I wasn't very good in the lab. I was starting to think about alternatives, more administrative roles, even at that time. But in the early 2000s, there was still an expectation that you were going into academia and going [00:02:00] to essentially have your own.

It was hard to think about alternatives. So I sort of had a plan and then ultimately ended up coming to Boston to do a postdoc and I ended up in a higher powered lab where they didn't need someone with administrative skills, they needed somebody who was good at the bench. When I was in graduate school, I was sort of almost running my lab in a sense.

Because my PI was away and so forth, and it was just me and a few technicians a lot of times when I came to grad school. And I'm sorry, when I came to my co stock, then it was like, okay, we need you to be able to do rodent surgeries and perfect cryo sections and so forth. And I simply wasn't able to master those skills.

So, I was fortunate that I was able to find a position doing more clinically oriented research. related to neuroimaging, which is where I had hoped to end up in the beginning, and that just didn't work out for graduates because there just weren't the [00:03:00] opportunities available in research groups that were accepting PhD students.

So I did that for a few years and that was definitely a benefit, you know, it was a steep learning curve, but over time there just wasn't enough money to continue supporting that. So it also happened around the same time that the department that I was in needed a residency coordinator. And that position that the level of education that you're seeing among program coordinators is certainly increasing.

There are a fair number now who have master's degrees, but if you go back a generation, there were a lot of people who were able to start in that role just out of high school and have grown with it and now have tremendous experience. So it wasn't a traditional. pathway for someone with a PhD. It was intended to be a stopgap job until I, another opportunity came along.

And then at one point, our department was restructuring and somebody in the department was being pushed out. [00:04:00] As a result of the restructuring and I thought, you know, I'm just going to look at job ads and see if I can find something for her. I don't think I'll find anything, but at least I can make her feel a little better.

And as I was doing that, I randomly stumbled upon an ad for this position. And I said, wait a minute, put her aside for a minute. This sounds like the perfect job for me. And it turned out I was right and everything worked out. And that's how I ended up here. But as I mentioned at the beginning, This position is really designed for somebody who has a PhD in biomedical science or a social science, who understands the research in biomedical fields, but also has some sort of administrative background that they're bringing in from a prior position and is ready to walk away from their own research.

Hardeep Ranu: So for those of us who don't know, like me, what's involved in being a residency coordinator?

Tara Lauriat: Sure, so Residency programs in the United States have to [00:05:00] follow strict accreditation requirements by the ACGME, which is the accrediting agency, and the coordinator is really the person who is doing all of the administrative, writing the schedules and keeping track of kind of the den mother for your residents.

You know, there are defined responsibilities in terms of, you know, reporting and keeping track of things and organizing. Class schedules and rotation schedules and so forth. But you also informally become the provider of chocolate and assorted other things. And, you know, for some coordinators who are significantly older than their residents, they kind of were like a second mom.

In my case, being around the same age as many of them, I was more like a peer, but I was still responsible for making sure they had plenty of chocolate and, you know, coordinating the interviews and so forth.

Hardeep Ranu: So were you involved from the beginning, you know, from their selection or was it post [00:06:00] selection where your involvement came in?

Tara Lauriat: So I was involved in All aspects of it, though, recruitment is actually a huge part of, you know, organizing the interviews and coordinating the schedules and arranging with the candidates. And, you know, by the time I, my last year in that role, we had five slots to fill. I believe we've got about 1, 500 hours.

Hardeep Ranu: Well, that's quite a ratio of applicants.

Tara Lauriat: Positions was almost mind boggling. And, you know, when. There are, most specialties have a program director's organization and then within that or sometimes separately, the coordinators have built up their own sort of professional society. And I did get involved with the group for, um, psychiatry coordinators and actually was involved with their career development.

Initially, I believe it was a task force, but then grew into a committee.

Hardeep Ranu: So what about being a residency coordinator [00:07:00] was relevant to your current position? Yeah.

Tara Lauriat: I gained a huge understanding of medical education that most people wouldn't share just from the research background. You know, understanding what the expectations are in terms of teaching trainees and physicians who are supervising our residents had faculty appointments not in the Harvard system but in one of the other medical schools and getting a sense of what went into that process and what the expectations were.

It gave me This window into medical education that I wouldn't have had and given that I had a PhD so I had more of a Neuroscience related to psychiatric disorders. I had more content level interest in knowledge than most coordinators would and I was in a department That was understaffed. We just didn't have enough faculty to provide the education I kind of was looking at it for level in terms of how we educate trainees or so and I think that's really what Coupled with the [00:08:00] research background, understanding basic science research and clinical research.

Hardeep Ranu: So, which parts did you enjoy and which parts didn't you like in that position?

Tara Lauriat: I definitely enjoyed coordinating the didactic sessions and identifying grand round speakers and arranging that for the department and so forth. I think there were some, let's say, work tasks of making sure everything is In the files and some of it ends up you're doing something to meet an accreditation requirement, but it almost feels Unnecessary, and I guess the biggest challenge is that I was in a department that did not have the types of resources that many of the harvard affiliates have and the acgme still expected our faculty members to be producing scholarship and It wasn't an institution that was set up to do that, and they didn't [00:09:00] seem to make concessions for community hospitals.

Hardeep Ranu: So those faculty had to have the same sort of requirements as somebody at Harvard or, you know, an equally big kind of medical school.

Tara Lauriat: I wouldn't go as far as to say that, but we had a department, on average we might have like eight faculty members in our department. And that was not even enough to really fully staff clinical service.

So they were stretched so thin. They were also people who didn't have the background to do that type of scholarship. And so there really was almost no scholarly activity coming out of the department. And so when we would prepare the reports, that would come back as one of the citations.

Hardeep Ranu: Right. And seemingly it was something that was pretty difficult to rectify easily.

Tara Lauriat: Yeah, I believe it was a citation for a decade. We just didn't have the infrastructure to do that. Some of the other departments did have [00:10:00] some faculty members who were producing scholarship, but it was hard to even have faculty members have the bandwidth to teach and do didactics when they were struggling so hard to Meet the clinical needs and the patients come first in the hospital.

Hardeep Ranu: Right. You were, I mean, you were saying it was a community hospital, which I think are really busy. And they are obviously for the community, and it's about serving the patients first and foremost.

Tara Lauriat: Yes, and the environment was a little bit different in that there was real focus on profit as well, which I understand the need for that, but It is a bit at odds with an [00:11:00] educational mission where that's driving, you're slowing your faculty members down in terms of their clinical productivity, but if you want to have an educational teaching hospital.

Hardeep Ranu: So what about that was the most relevant for the current position that you're in now?

Tara Lauriat: Well, what I was just describing, that is happening across the board. I think to a lesser extent, you know, I think the challenges of medical education in a for profit hospital, almost, let's say an oxymoron, but it's rather challenging.

But even in some of our most well resourced hospitals in this system, there is a focus at the hospital level on clinical needs as is understandable, but it interferes with faculty members ability to meet the requirements. that they need to get promoted to the next level. They don't have enough protected time in some cases, and I'm not involved in, you know, what happens at the level of their hospital and their department, but certainly we're [00:12:00] seeing the dossiers and we're talking to faculty members.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, that's definitely something that I have heard in terms of The clinician researchers, they, you know, really wish they had more protected time because they really like doing their research. They think it's an important part of their career development, but it makes it incredibly difficult to then, you know, produce and get promoted.

Tara Lauriat: Right. Now, our office has, well, in concert with the departments and hospitals, we have the Which allow young faculty members to obtain some funds that in most cases they use to buy out some of their time so that they can have that protected time to hopefully make progress on a project that would otherwise, or they may use it to hire a research assistant to move things along and that, or those awards are unique in that.

It's not [00:13:00] exclusively the merit of the project, but it's also personal need, which, in that demographic, is often having young children and trying to balance those responsibilities, in some cases it could be health related issues, et cetera. So,

Hardeep Ranu: in the position you're in now, what do you enjoy the most

about it?

Tara Lauriat: I, it's certainly very gratifying to You know, see our faculty members be successful, and it's absolutely awe inspiring to see how incredibly successful we have. One of the aspects that I enjoy the most is working on nominations for endowed professorships. Some of the professorships have such interesting histories behind them, especially the ones that were established 1800s or early 1900s, just, you know, learning about the history.

Understanding how that translates to the present, given that you have terms that were established to [00:14:00] govern a professorship in perpetuity, and now looking at it over a century later.

Hardeep Ranu: What don't you like about it? Which I know is kind of a difficult question to answer. What do you find the most frustrating, I guess?

Tara Lauriat: One of the big challenges is that we have a very complex Process with extensive vetting and many steps, some of which move very slowly. And the volume of work that we have is more than we can comfortably manage. And that means that things move slowly. When I first started, I didn't have as much on my plate, so to speak.

And so when something was in my court, I could turn it around very quickly. I don't have the capacity to do that anymore. And it's hard knowing that people's promotions are being held up because of me. And [00:15:00] sometimes people get very frustrated, understandably. And because it's a highly confidential process.

We can't share all the details that would help them understand why things are taking so long, which often has nothing to do with them. Right now, it's taking us a long time to get letters of evaluation because everybody is just spread so thin. You know, we're asking somebody basically to do us a favor by writing this evaluation.

They don't get anything out of it. And, you know, being sensitive to that, but knowing that if you're not pushing people, then somebody's promotion isn't moving forward, that's the part of it that can be sort of challenging.

Hardeep Ranu: What do you think would make your life easier? Or let's say for the whole office for faculty

affairs.

Tara Lauriat: We're starting to look at some of our processes to see, you know, where we can modify things that could. Speed up timelines, you know, whether it's [00:16:00] something related to the leather gathering, you know, some of them are sort of maybe larger games. And then sometimes there are small things, you know, I think our office, you know, we're very careful about things and checking things and striving for perfection.

Hardeep Ranu: Where is that important? And, you know, where could we get away with it? A little. Where would you see yourself moving on from this position if, you know, you could or you wanted to? What would be the next step from being in this position?

Tara Lauriat: The associate dean, who is my direct supervisor, was a program director at one point.

And there are a few other people in similar roles across the university who, or who have been in similar roles at some of the other Harvard schools. You know, started as a program director and then that was sort of the next step. Of course, you know, that depends on the right opportunity being available at the right [00:17:00] time.

And the other thing is that there will hopefully just be opportunities to

Hardeep Ranu: grow. Is there something that, you know, like one of the things that I have been saying is that I would really like to work in a Formula One team. I mean, the likelihood of that happening is very slim. There's something about working in that kind of team environment that really appeals to me.

Because you're all working towards one particular goal. Which, I know, is to be the fastest car on, on the track, that is.

Tara Lauriat: That, that's an, so you're thinking then more like, kind of like the dream job that's not necessarily the next step from what you're doing current.

Hardeep Ranu: I mean, you could take it either way.

Yes, the logical next step would be the associate, associate dean position. What would be your dream next step?

Tara Lauriat: Well, the dream next step is probably, I'm [00:18:00] not looking to change careers, uh, my image, but I think, you know, one of the things that I do a lot of is community service type. Activities that almost get into a social work type role, but of course, I have no training in that, so that's not my profession, but it's almost a little bit of that sort of case management type of stuff and helping people who are less fortunate, which is actually quite a contrast from the constituency that we serve at HMS.

Hardeep Ranu: So let's move on to your community work, because I think that's pretty interesting and there's a couple of different. Positions that you hold outside of work that I would love to hear more about.

Tara Lauriat: Yeah. So the one that I've been doing for quite some time is the food pantry at St. Paul's parish in Harvard square.

And St. Paul's happens to be the home to the Harvard Catholic center and the base for the Harvard [00:19:00] Catholic community. That's purely coincidental that I'm connected there and. Working at Harvard, but it's something I started volunteering there just about 10 years ago, or just under 10 years ago, and they ended up needing somebody to kind of take over as the lead volunteer, so to speak, and oversee everything.

I wasn't really experienced enough or qualified to do it, but there were enough people Who could sort of support me and there was nobody else who was interested in stepping up to the plate and we certainly didn't want to see the food pantry come to an end. So, you know, it was a learning curve obviously like everything.

We had, you know, a system that was already in place and I introduced new things and so forth. Of course, when March of 2020 hit, it was a steep learning curve for everyone and. The decision from the Archdiocese and everybody else was [00:20:00] that food pantries were essential and that we could stay open. Of course, we had no idea how to do that.

We were all volunteers, so this wasn't like anyone's job. And so we handed out food in bags, outside, in the cold. And, you know, a lot of people were like, oh, I want to volunteer, I want to help. You know, we made, I made a conscious decision that we wouldn't take in new volunteers at that time. We needed to just have a bare bones staff of people who already knew what they were doing and wouldn't need to be asking questions and bad potatoes six feet away from each other and trying not to freeze, giving them that outside.

And what came out of that was, now we're back inside. We ended up keeping some of the things that, some of the changes that we made ended up working so much better. Like what? Well, for starters, most of the main thing that we give out is fresh produce. And the organization that had provided us with the produce for years and years is Fairfoods, [00:21:00] which operates a 2 event program.

And we had sort of a modified partnership with them, but we collected 2 from everyone so that it wasn't a handout. They shut down in March of 2020, so that left us in the lurch. I was aware of another food rescue organization, and I connected with them. We ended up connecting with two other organizations, and those partnerships ended up actually being a better fit for us.

We're now getting milk and eggs and frozen meals and cheese and yogurt, all kinds of fancy stuff. We've even gotten filet mignon and shrimp scampi, and Fancy stuff. So that's certainly one thing. You know, we could have gone back to our original partner, but we ultimately decided not to and has forced things grow.

We also found that we had kind of a pseudo choice model for handing out the vegetables and fruits and so forth. You know, during COVID that was, digging through bins was universally not allowed. So, [00:22:00] we had pre packed bags, and at that point it was like, just take your bag and run with it. If you don't want something in it, just find somebody else to take it, and you don't want it back.

We planned to go back to a more, like, choice based model, but we found that people were actually okay with getting the produce pre packed, and then there are enough other choices, so they still feel like they're getting Some choice without having people digging through everything and checking out every onion in the bin and throwing things down.

So that was a bit of a surprise.

Hardeep Ranu: Do you notice a difference in the economy and how many people come?

Tara Lauriat: I don't know if I would say I see a big difference. We have some people who have been coming for an extended period. You know, one group that we see. To a small extent, and I'm hoping the word will get out more, is some of the graduate students in the Harvard schools, especially in schools like the Graduate School of Design, where they have a lot of international graduate [00:23:00] students.

Some of them have a family, and they may have a spouse who's either also a student or has a visa status that doesn't allow them to work in a traditional job, and then they have kids. So how do we make ends meet? So some of them have been coming to us, and then Others hear about them from their classmates, and I think, you know, there's this notion that, yeah, community college students need assistance, but people don't realize that students at places like Harvard and MIT and so forth do as well.

Hardeep Ranu: Yes, that's definitely something that you wouldn't expect.

Tara Lauriat: So I actually wanted to ask you about the JCSW and your membership. What are the ways in which you have been contributing to the JCSW, and what do you enjoy about it? Yeah, so. The JCSW is actually run through our office. The one staff member who is employed to manage JCSW is part of our office.

So we have this sort of special connection to [00:24:00] the JCSW. I signed up when I first came to HMS, which is about six and a half years ago. And I joined the Career Advancement Committee. It seemed to be a good fit with my role and having been right before that in my prior role as a residency coordinator, I had taken on being the chair, chair or co chair of the Career Advancement Committee for Psychiatry Residency Coordinators through our national group.

It seemed like a good fit, so I kind of just went with that group and I've continued. On that subcommittee, and it is a subcommittee that is more of interest to faculty than staff as a general, although we make efforts to make sure that everything we're doing is inclusive of the needs of both faculty and staff.

And so, at a certain point, we realized that it made sense for me to be the staff co chair because We didn't exactly have a ton of other staff members and so I did that last [00:25:00] academic year and the year before and so I just rotated out of that position and now I'm sort of guiding the next co chairs as they are about to be incredibly successful and looking forward to continuing and watching them grow our subcommittee.

Hardeep Ranu: What kind of programming is the Career Advancement Committee thinking of doing for the academic year?

Tara Lauriat: So the major interest, particularly this is an interest of one of our co chairs, is thinking about how people are innovative in their everyday activity. You know, one of the things that we focus on, the area of excellence to get promoted as a clinician, is clinical expertise and innovation.

It's not enough to be good at what you do. You have to have be innovative. And of course that's commensurate with rank. We don't expect somebody going up for assistant professor to have changed the course of medicine. Wouldn't be reasonable. We do see some pretty extraordinary [00:26:00] accomplishments in terms of innovation from some of our more senior faculty members.

But you know, her point is that There are people who are doing some things that are just part of their job that they may not realize are innovative, but they truly are. And how can you capitalize on that and maybe turn that into scholarly work and make that work for you academically?

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, I work for Harvard Catalyst.

So we are always looking for innovative ways of doing something or looking at a particular question differently. Coming up for, coming at it from a different angle or collaborating with people who you normally wouldn't collaborate with. That's something that we're always looking to see as a way to advance science and, and you know, especially with regards to human health.

So that's kind of interesting to me to try and define what innovative is.

Tara Lauriat: Yeah. And certainly people had to be very innovative as they adapted to new ways of [00:27:00] doing things in 2020. Just in general, based on the resources that people have available to them. Sometimes it's the lack thereof. And sometimes it's having certain resources.

And like you said, bringing people together that you wouldn't ordinarily.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, it's kind of like the JCSW is a place for you to meet people in different areas of the affiliated institutions and get to know them. It is a big networking opportunity, but also hopefully you'd get those kind of collaborations out of it as

Tara Lauriat: well. Yeah, I once heard somebody, I think they heard this from someone else, but it was an interesting point that somebody said one of the things that had facilitated collaboration in their institution was how slow the elevators were because you ended up talking to people that you never would have talked to while you were waiting for this elevator to come.

Hardeep Ranu: Sometimes it's those little things that somehow make the difference. So you are on a different side of the fence hearing faculty talk [00:28:00] about their careers. Have you any advice for them from your perspective?

Tara Lauriat: It really varies quite a bit depending on the specifics of their role. I think we've seen people who have been able to Spearhead interesting interdisciplinary programs.

You know, they may work with a certain patient population and they've been able to bring together the different stakeholder groups that are needed to treat those patients when they would've been siloed in the things like that. I think. And that may be possible with the infrastructure that someone has available to them, it may not.

Hardeep Ranu: And in terms of their career, what kind of general advice could you give them?

Tara Lauriat: So I would say that if someone were doing something like that. It's, there's a way to sort of collect data on impacts or some kind of metrics that you can show that you can then publish and say, you know, this is how we did it.

This is what was effective and these are [00:29:00] the data to show that because then it becomes a scholarly activity as opposed to just a, a program. And you can, you're promoted based on your scholarly activity. And so the people who have done the amazing local clinical contributions and made a huge impact locally, it's hard for them to get promoted to the higher ranks because they don't necessarily have the scholarship to support their innovation.

Hardeep Ranu: So we're getting near to the end of our conversation, and there are two questions that I always ask, and I may add a third one for season two. So the two questions that I ask are, what professional skills are you working on, or would like to work on, and what personal skills are you working on, or would like to work on?

Tara Lauriat: So I think the professional skill, it's really about learning how to be A better manager [00:30:00] leader and so forth. I'm sort of in that mid career stage I have only one direct report, but I feel like there's a lot out there even through like this Center for workplace development and so forth that I really want to take advantage of some of that and learn That and then from a personal perspective I think there are skills like just being a better listener and so forth that I can learn to Um, find the right balance and things like that.

Hardeep Ranu: Is there any other hobbies that you're working on that would also fit into this, the personal skills?

Tara Lauriat: Oh, well, so I am part of a philanthropy group, a women's giving circle. And at some point I might be interested in having a leadership position in there, I think right now, I feel like. I'm. Doing about as much as I can do well.

It certainly takes something else on [00:31:00] but I don't want to Take on too much and then not do a good job of everything and I think some of the same skills are actually since my hobbies are a little bit managerial and being the president of a local chapter so to speak of an organization you know learning the realities of budget issues and so

forth

Hardeep Ranu: It's nice to hear that that is something that you enjoy doing outside of work.

Tara Lauriat: There are times when it does feel like work, I'm not gonna lie. But still,

Hardeep Ranu: it seems to me that you've been doing some kind of volunteer work throughout your life.

Tara Lauriat: Yeah. Certainly in college and graduate school and so forth, yeah, yeah, pretty much.

Hardeep Ranu: So that's something that's very important for you.

Tara Lauriat: Yeah.

Hardeep Ranu: That's great. I guess my third question would be, what do you wish you could do? It could be anything, anything at all.

Tara Lauriat: I think if I could do anything, [00:32:00] I would want to see some of the systemic challenges, like people not being able to find a place to live, for example, right here in our local community. Some, you know, there are some practical reasons, and then there are some more political reasons.

And I think if I can fix that with a magic wand, because I'm, I never really, until fairly recently, appreciated some of the realities of what other people experience. I've been right here in what some people perceive to be your inaffluent community.

Hardeep Ranu: I remember doing some management course a few years ago, and the person teaching the course had us write down where we had privilege.

It can be something as seemingly trivial as access to running water. And when you think of it that way, it's really sobering or eye opening.

Tara Lauriat: Yeah, it's funny that you say that. I had a conversation with someone yesterday in one of my volunteer roles about how she's trying to find help for her cousin [00:33:00] who has had not had hot water for three years.

And this is in Brookline, not, you know, you don't realize that you're our neighbors and there's no straightforward way to fix some of these things when you don't have the funds to do it.

Hardeep Ranu: One other thing that I have is for the St. Paul's food pantry. For people, if they wanted to donate, how do they go about doing that?

And also for the other philanthropic foundation, how, how can they help?

Tara Lauriat: So the, when I mentioned the women's giving circle, that is actually the member that it's called the philanthropy connection. It's for women or people who identify as women. Check out the website. We're always eager to get new members because everybody pays into the giving circle and that's how we get the money to give out 10, 25, 000 grants every year.

And we become sort of the grants teams to decide that for [00:34:00] the food pantry, their money is probably not surprisingly. Not a huge need for us. It's actually the non perishable food is donated by people who go to church there and for the community and so forth. And I don't want to take up too much of our time, but, you know, realizing that the needs of what people actually want are things like nuts, crackers, coffee.

We are drowning in pasta and canned beans and canned tomatoes, and there is a demand for those, but the supply usually exceeds the demand. So I think for people donating to any organization, I would say, you know, try to find out what their specific needs are because it's actually not that helpful if you're donating things that they don't have a use for.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay, so for the St. Paul's Food Pantry, you're asking people is that what we would really love Uh, nuts and crackers, coffee, and anything else. Is there anything else that you [00:35:00] wish you had more of that people would really want to have?

Tara Lauriat: Oh yeah, I mean, cereal is very popular. We find that flavored tea, condiments actually, mayonnaise, ketchup, salad dressing.

We give out, like, a ton of vegetables. People can make a salad, so we need salad dressings. You know, we give out a lot of tuna. People need mayo. You know, those are things that people don't necessarily think of so much. You're always thinking about the basic staples. But people need these other things. We also find, you know, like those little pouches with the Indian meals, like the Madras lentils and stuff.

Things like that are pretty popular. granola bars or neutral grain type bars.

Hardeep Ranu: Are there any particular brands or types of things which

would be preferable?

Tara Lauriat: Brands, not specifically. Obviously we do have some people who are very picky. At one point we had a mouse problem and it's not that the mice were even picky.

They got into the trail mix and left the raisins behind.

[00:36:00] You know, we certainly have people that only want quaker oatmeal or they only want Specific, but generally people are pretty open if our model is a little bit different than many we only allow people can come every week. They don't have to fill out any paperwork, but they only from the from the non perishable items that are donated.

They can only pick two each they can come every week, but so they pick, you know, two high quality items in many cases If you get coffee and, you know, something else, those are like, not trivial to, you know, in terms of the cost if you had to buy them yourself.

Hardeep Ranu: And presumably, if people are going to donate coffee, you want it to be ground, right?

And not whole beans. Or, or does it matter?

Tara Lauriat: I mean, most people aren't looking for ground coffee. We do have some people who come in and say that they can take whole bean because they have a grinder. I have one woman who said she didn't have a grinder, but she took hers to Starbucks or some place and actually walked in and ground the coffee.

I wouldn't, I wouldn't [00:37:00] encourage people to do that. If you have a friend who has a grinder, then sure. We find that there's people who are looking for instant coffee because they don't have a coffee maker. A few people who want decaf, most don't. You know, so we try to have, we try to meet. Needs to the best of our ability.

And a lot of these people come week after week. So we know so and so is going to be looking for X, Y, or Z.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay, great. That sounds like a good list of things that hopefully our listeners will now at least consider when they're donating. And maybe that's not necessarily at St. Paul's, but to a different food pantry.

Things like that, that you wouldn't ordinarily think about as donating.

Tara Lauriat: Yeah, and it can also vary a little bit from one place to another based on the culture of the, you know, for example, if you have a high Haitian population or Russian population or Asian population or whatever, or a lot of, you know, students, that can sometimes affect what is in demand that particular.

Hardeep Ranu: Is there anything [00:38:00] else that you would like to add as we come to a close?

Tara Lauriat: I just want to say thank you for having me on your podcast.

Hardeep Ranu: No, thank you. Thank you for volunteering. We can only have this podcast with people who volunteer, so I appreciate you taking the time to do this.

Tara Lauriat: All right. Very nice talking to you.

Season 1 | Episode 1

Getting to know Diana Longden, the secret sauce behind the JCSW.

Transcript of Episode

Hardeep Ranu: [00:00:00] We're here with Diana Longden she's the administrative coordinator for the JCSW. Diana, do you want to introduce yourself?

Diana Longden: Yes. Hi. So I work in the office for faculty affairs and I am a part time employee. and my main [00:01:00] responsibilities are just around. Supporting the Joint Committee on the Status of Women and all activities that surround that committee and our subcommittees as well.

Hardeep Ranu: How long have you been with the JCSW being the administrative coordinator?

Diana Longden: I started about 7 years ago, a little over 7 years ago, yes, in that role.

Hardeep Ranu: And, how do you like your work? Because it's part time, right? You only do 17 and a half hours into 2 days.

Diana Longden: Yes.  Two and a half days. Which is, is really great for my family.

I have two little guys in school and we live a good distance from Boston now and central mass. So it's a great balance for me to continue working and kind of staying out there and still being a part of HMS while also having two full days dedicated to My family at home.

Hardeep Ranu: [00:02:00] So you started seven years ago.

What were you doing before that?

Diana Longden: So before coming to the JCSW, I was working in the PME, which is the program in medical education and I started there in 2003 as a staff assistant working for the curriculum that supports Students kind of learning to become doctors and back then it was called the patient doctor experience or patient doctor courses.

There was one for first year, second year and third year, and I did that for three years. Then I was promoted to a course manager for the year one curriculum. And so I got to support the courses that the students take in their very first year of med school which was really fun. I really loved it.

It was a great group of faculty, great group of colleagues, and I love working with the students. But with the move you know, an hour outside of Boston and having my second child, I couldn't, I felt that it wasn't right to [00:03:00] continue that that lifestyle. So luckily I found. The posting for the JCSW and it really kind of fit me personally, given that I was going through my own you know, transformation in my life and the JCSW, one of the things they support is a work life balance and promoting, wellness.

For, for faculty and staff, trainees, students at HMS and HSDM.

Hardeep Ranu: When you first started to now how do you think things have changed? Because, you, because you've done it for seven years now, so you can see how things have changed, gotten better, gotten worse. Yeah, I'm interested to, to know. How it looks from your point of view?

Diana Longden: When I started, I think we've just gotten more efficient.

I think a lot of it has to do with COVID. Actually, I hate to bring up COVID right now, but I think everyone's gotten a little bit more efficient in their work and using technology. [00:04:00] That's kind of come a long way with the JCSW as well. We have a new website. And now it's no longer new. It was new probably five years ago, but more new ways of doing things.

We have we offer hybrid meetings. So even before coven, we would try to record and live stream all of our events so that. Our faculty members that work across town or even out of town and down and, you know, Brockton or you know, over in Belmont they could still participate in our meetings either remotely through a live stream or watching it later.

And still be kind of considered a member, an active member of the JCSW, even if they physically can't get to HMS. And then offering our, a lot of our meetings just purely remote. has actually increased our attendance because as I was saying, there's just faculty all over the place with, you know, with 12,000 faculty and I think 16 hospital affiliates around there somewhere.

People are everywhere. So it allows us to kind of [00:05:00] expand our reach a little bit. So it's definitely evolved over the seven years I've been in the role.

Hardeep Ranu: What you're saying would be the best part of your job?

Diana Longden: Well i'm a people person. I'm really chatty. I like I really like connecting with people and I feel like I get to do that like every day at my job And the other thing that I love is There is new people all the time that are joining the committee.

So I get to really interact with so many different people and it's always changing. And the fact that our leadership does change over every year. It does allow me to have a close relationship with those two people every year. And it feels like I just expand my own personal network, you know, my own career network.

Kind of every year just with getting to work closely with these awesome faculty and staff co-chairs that come on and really just donate their time to this cause and the subcommittees [00:06:00] and the committee as a whole.

Hardeep Ranu: What would you say would be the least favorite part of your job?

Diana Longden: I mean with any job there could be challenging personalities to work with and we can be kind of tied down to a set of guidelines and, you know, as much as people come in and they're excited and they want to do so much.

We really are limited in our resources and the time and the people that can implement. Any new idea that comes up, it can take time to make change and to kind of put things into action. So there are some roadblocks that come up which can make things a little challenging. But overall, I think even the challenging personalities, everyone is really there because they feel passionate about the work that the JCSW does.

Hardeep Ranu: So one of the things that you had [00:07:00] said was about all the people that you get to work with, and you know, you, you are the one who You work with everyone. So you're like contacting the Dean external speakers, you know, the, there are the, like sort of the leadership people who you are contacting, like the Dean, like even, I don't know, the CEO of Children's or whoever., the Brigham, just so many different like all heads of departments, chairs and you're the one who's contacting them. You're the ones who, who's interacting with them. Like, how do you find that? Do you find it intimidating, or are you used to it? Are you, you know, not just, I'm just interested to know how that is for you?

Diana Longden: I think it can be intimidating, but I also know that, you know, these people that, that [00:08:00] you're mentioning are incredible and amazing and what they do, but they may not. And so I try to remember that when, if I'm talking to someone who's a really high level speaker or like a Dean or, anyone that may kind of have a high stature, I guess, in our community.

But. I think, yeah, just remembering that they do amazing at what they do, but, you know, I try hard to do well at what I do as well and just, you know, part of my job, I need to reach out and sometimes I get to deliver great news, for example, hey, you're this person that is a physician at your hospital just won this amazing award and we're going to be celebrating that and we hope you can join.

So I think I'm fortunate in that sense.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, let's say you're working. with some of those challenging personalities, right? Because we all do. [00:09:00] And what would you wish them to know from your perspective?

Diana Longden: Oh, that's such a good question. I guess I'm just one person sometimes because I might be The, you know, the representative from HMS in that particular encounter it's just one person delivering one message a lot of the time and. You know, we are all people, and I think, I don't know, you, the way you can approach somebody can really change how you're perceived.

And I think that if you make someone feel poorly, it's, you don't always move on from that. You know, kind of like a first impression can last a lifetime, but it can be a second, third, fourth, fifth impression, too, that can stick that way. So just, remembering that people are [00:10:00] people and even on your worst days those things can stick with other people.

Hardeep Ranu: So it sounds like what you're saying is the first impression works both ways. So your first impression and also the other, the other people who are interacting with you, it's their first impression on you. as well. Right. That, that can go a long way.

Diana Longden: I think, you know, if you, if you make someone feel a certain way, whether it's good or whether it's bad, then it's hard to take that back.

Hardeep Ranu: But presumably you'd want to feel good.

Diana Longden: Exactly.

Hardeep Ranu: Right. Right. I want to make sure that or that's how I feel about your position is like the, sometimes [00:11:00] it can. your role kind of gets overlooked or the amount of work that you have to do in order for things to happen. And and I don't necessarily know whether everybody actually appreciates that it's not just, you know, just working for one subcommittee.

It's all of them. It's JCA and the JCSW as a whole you know, you're getting things ready for the leadership council meetings. And like, what else? Like on a day to day basis, like what else do you do?

Diana Longden: Well, for today, for example, we just had a meeting about the next strategic plan that has expired.

And we're trying to, you know, rally the troops. I have a small subcommittee that's been formed, almost more of a task force. That is looking at this document and you know, The work that goes into that, number one, the biggest thing is scheduling those things, [00:12:00] because when you have these five or six people all over the place, you know, just trying to find one hour that works is really hard.

And then, you know, getting into the meeting and feeling like, like I have to drive the bus of the meeting until hopefully someone takes over with more content knowledge because, you know, I am really just the logistical person here. But. Yeah. So today we're working on the strategic plan.

I'm also finalizing the annual report from last year which is gathering a lot of info from a lot of people and preparing to send that to Dean daily and, you know, planning for our next event, dealing with event space, trying to find the best. Location for a speaker that could have a large draw of people at the end of this month new members joining every day, adding them and welcoming them and sending them the information that we need.

I think I have two new members in my inbox right now, waiting to be added and [00:13:00] oriented to the committee. So it's just a sampling of things I'm working on today, but yeah. One thing I love about the job is it does change a lot depending on the time of year. So after the new year, we'll get started on the Dean's Awards.

And that is a big chunk of my job through June. Just organizing. The nomination materials, sending it out, soliciting nominations, getting everything in, compiling it, dividing it up amongst the review committee, scheduling the review meetings rating all the candidates sometimes it needs to be two or three meetings to decide, and then once it's decided, letting everybody know.

Who the winners are, who did not receive the award this year and then planning that event as well.

Hardeep Ranu: And that's all in 17 and a half hours.

Diana Longden: Yes. A week. So, I mean, that's a lot of work. for one person to do. So I think [00:14:00] that sometimes gets overlooked and underappreciated from my point of view, I should say.

Hardeep Ranu: So you and I are both staff and we both know that HMS has a lot of faculty, you know, much of which are from the affiliates from the hospitals and so on. And what would you say? And, you know, that's something that we're always trying to do is recruit more staff to join because it is the joint committee.

And what would you say that would be useful for, you know, staff out there who aren't sure what it's about and whether it would be useful because it seems so faculty focused?

Diana Longden: Yeah, it is. And that's a struggle that we've had for so many years. I would just always say just join the email list [00:15:00] and join the committee and because there's no harm in doing that.

Once you get on the list serve and you know about all the events that are happening. You know, it might be a year or two later that you realize, Oh, I actually have time and I actually really feel passionate about this. You know, maybe that day that you join, you don't, but things in life change and, you know, you may want a new job and you want to look into the career advancement subcommittee.

It's also just such an amazing way to meet people and network throughout the institutions as well because you could meet a faculty member that works for McLean Hospital and, oh, it turns out they need a new grants administrator or something. You just really never know what opportunities may arise from just sitting in that room or being in a breakout Zoom room with somebody and just making those connections.

And finding mentors as well. I know so, I've had mentors that, even though I'm a staff member, I've had mentors that are faculty [00:16:00] members. And there's so much you can just get from

just sitting in that room, listening to others speak, saying hi to someone in line for your lunch, or you know, as you're walking out of Gordon Hall back to your, to your office.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, I would say that I agree with you on that. I think it's a, fantastic networking opportunity. And by networking, I think didn't we have somebody do a networking kind of a workshop, like what is networking, you know? Yeah. Right. And so what. She said it's like, it isn't going into a room and introducing yourself to like 10 people and trying to talk to them.

 It's sort of like connecting with maybe one or two people. And then maybe the next time you come along, you connect with another two people. Or it's the same one or two people, but even if it's just two people, now you've gotten to know two people who are at... [00:17:00] Wherever, like you said, McLean or MGH, or even in a, just a different department at HMS, now you've gotten to know that and you can use that in whatever way you want.

It's, you know, you, you can find out what's going on in their department, and, and sort of compare how they do things compared to what, how you do things. That's how I use the JCSW is, you know, it's getting to know people, it's finding out what people do for their work, you know, and sort of just learning something else, I'm, I like to know what I and just get a sense of who they are and you know what they do and what drives them and stuff.

And also, you know, there are times when I [00:18:00] do find that somebody has been seems really supportive and I have asked them say, Hey, do you mind if we meet? I want to go over something, this, issue I'm having or whatever. What do you think about this? And they're always happy to say, yeah, okay, let's meet.

We can be and then I go and talk to them and then, and I'm open to whatever they say their feedback, their input, whatever their advice is, has always been really useful to me. And it doesn't have to be that intense or anything like that, but it, like you said, it could just be saying, Hey, you know, over lunch.

And then that's it until the next month,

Diana Longden: right? And there you have a mentor, you know, even if it's one meeting or two or three, you know, that's someone you would maybe not have ever met if you didn't go to an event or put yourself out there. Because that can be another thing, especially when you're newer to HMS or on the younger side, [00:19:00] it can feel a little intimidating to join a group or.

You show up at a meeting. So I'd love to just emphasize how welcoming everyone is and you know, grab one of us if we're there. We will make sure you're comfortable.

Hardeep Ranu: And I know that I have met so many great people through the JCSW who I would never have met. And Christina Kennedy who was a co chair.

I think right after me and staff co chair and somewhere along the way we started meeting for coffee every, I feel like it was every other week or something like that or however, whenever it was, we would meet for coffee and like just talk over things. And so now we have a. Standing meetings, you meeting every other week.

And sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. And but it's a good way just to kind of check in and see [00:20:00] how things are going or whatever. And, so. For me, that would, that's, that would, has been a really great thing to have happened. And what about the subcommittees? And actually, no, let me ask you a different question.

So in going through the accomplishments of the J C S W, some of them are pretty amazing. The Office for Work Life, the lactation rooms, and. There's so many other great things that have come out of the , JCSW. And, there's this question I think I'm going to ask everybody. It's what would you think would be the next big thing?

What could we add to that list?

Diana Longden: That's a great question. It's hard because I know a lot of things are easier to implement in HMS because and it's hard when all of the affiliated [00:21:00] hospitals have their own sets of policies and programs and ways of paying their faculty, whether it's grants or foundations.

It's not as simple as just Harvard writing your check. So. That is a really hard thing and I don't think that could be next. I believe Harvard Medical School has reached pay equity and they feel, I think it's pretty well known that, you know, women are paid as fairly as men now at HMS. I don't think achieving that at the hospitals is something that, The GCSW would be able to kind of check that box off because it is so complex.

I wish that could be the next one. And not just pay equity, but resource equity, [00:22:00] you know, access to the same lab, lab space is a big one, I think, or OR times is a big one. Staff support. Things like that. So I think I wish that would be next, but I don't know that GCSW could put that on there.

So what do I think will be, or what's an achievable goal?

Hardeep Ranu: Either. Unachievable, it could be a like pie in the sky goal. It could be, it's just a. It's an open question. Yeah. It it doesn't have to be. It's one of those questions where there is no right or wrong answer. I don't, in my view, it's just sort of a, in your mind, what could that be?

What would you like it to be? It's just a. I, it's just a exercise in dreaming about dreaming [00:23:00] big or some, something like that.

Diana Longden: Yeah, I think I would probably say, you know, if the J C S W could work with the dean's office. to formally issue recommendations. I don't know if that's the right way of saying it.

I don't think there could be a mandate just because everyone's their own institution. But like family leave policies are really variable amongst institutions. And I think Harvard is not just maternity leave, but like parental leave and also family leave for elder care. I know it's come up a lot lately, just in conversations.

And I myself was so fortunate to benefit from Harvard's. leave policy where I didn't have to take a salary cut. It's because I had worked here so long. I was still paid in full for three months, I think. So, but a lot of, I know my sisters work at Beth [00:24:00] Israel and they don't have that luxury. It's a different policy over there.

And they're not faculty. They're one's a nurse and one's a physician assistant. But I know it's just very, very variable as to what institutions are able to provide for that time off to, to care for family whether it's, you know, newborns or adoption or taking care of older family members.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really yeah, that would be a good thing that would benefit everyone. I think at the affiliates, I think that, that. If they could somehow be able to provide. that pay, that 100 percent pay for, three months for everyone so that they could take the time off and to take care of their, like you said, for their newborns or the [00:25:00] adoption or elder care, because that's also becoming a big deal, I think, the elder care as well. Something like that. I actually don't even have an answer to, to my own question.

Diana Longden: Well, I was going to ask you next. What do you think?

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah I'm not entirely sure. I was, yeah it's I probably need to think about it and come up with an answer in one of these things.

But Yeah, it was something that came up when I had done the trivia at the first meeting in September. And I had put up the list of the accomplishments of the JCSW and Afterwards, I said to something, someone, because they said, Oh, look at, that list was great. And I said, Yeah, you know, and what can we add to it?

And so then it got me thinking, like, what can we add to it? What could we? But I mean, that's as far as I got with the actual, the thought. [00:26:00] So I thought, well, I'll just ask everyone.

How do you think the leadership? It has changed, if at all, over the past few years. Has it? Or has it not? The leadership of the JCSW? Yeah, leadership. Let's say just the leadership council in general. Has that changed at all? Like maybe energy wise or just thoughts wise? That kind of perspective, I

Diana Longden: think it's always changing. And it's, one of the reasons why I love working on the JCSW, because every year, depending on, you know, different personalities and different. Goals, I think, people that come into that role are usually pretty passionate about a couple of things that are under the purview of the JCSW and, you know, different things will get done and different ways, I think, based upon the energy that comes in and usually it's pretty positive because it is a volunteer role, you know, people [00:27:00] don't get really much at all, except for the glory and the title, Of co chair.

So I think it changes every year. And usually in very good ways. It's more the focus, I would say, of what people really feel passionate about.

Hardeep Ranu: Do you have any examples of that kind of, like, focus? Like, one year it was this, another year it was something else.

Diana Longden: Yeah, I mean, I think a couple years ago we had chosen the theme of leadership development.

And I think that person that was faculty co chair at the time really felt passionate about that and kind of was going through their own, like, leadership development course, like a national, you know, for physicians in academic medicine, looking into, you know, leadership roles. And and that ended up being the theme for the year.

And I think everyone benefited from that. In another year, I think we had more of a focus on the professional equity. [00:28:00] And, you know, that co chair was on that committee for a while and worked on an original symposium and then, having a follow up symposium. So

those types of things. I always, in my mind, I, I always have this, this dream for the JCSW to get like a really high profile speaker.

Hardeep Ranu: So whoever you want, like, let's imagine that we could have anyone. Right? I'd say we could have three people on, and we'll spread it around through the year, right? So we're not going to get them all three in a row or something like that. We'll have one to kick it off, another one like, let's say, before the holidays, and then somewhere in the middle.

In the following year, because we're, because the JCSW is like kind of on the academic ish calendar, you know, we go from September ish to June. Yeah. In terms of meetings.[00:29:00]

Diana Longden: Okay, so three speakers in any given year. Could they be recently passed away? Yeah,

Hardeep Ranu: let's just like throw it out there. Who would we want?

Diana Longden: Okay, well, the first one that comes to mind would be RBG. Of course, yeah. I think

that would be... Amazing, especially given, you know, current political climate. Although we, if she was still here, we probably would not be in that. True. But I think, you know, a few years ago we played her documentary is just kind of a, an event, a different type of an event.

We had a movie screening and we had a popcorn machine and it was so. Nice to come into the Waterhouse room and just watch her the documentary about her. Yeah, it's great So that would be my first one. I mean Michelle Obama would be amazing. She comes up a lot As a speaker and I think it a lot of people's dreams would come true if that happened I don't know maybe Shirley Driscoll who has [00:30:00] just passed away as well She was the first chair of the GCSW, and I just would wonder what she would come in and think and what she would say.

So we did, we named like our Mid Career Faculty Dean's Award, the Shirley Driscoll Dean's Leadership Award for the Enhancement of Women's Careers just in, 2001, I think we named it that award it was created in 19, in 2019. So I just wonder what she would think and say looking back at, the last almost at 50 years of JCSW and what would she say?

What would she think? I think she'd be pretty proud.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Okay. So you've got two people have passed away and then we've got Michelle Obama. Yep. I wonder if I wouldn't get Michelle Obama to come on. I

Diana Longden: know. I know. We put her on the list for, because I organized the cast lecture. Which is it's really a faculty affairs thing.

It's not a JCSW thing, but it's just an extra thing they have [00:31:00] me working on. And her name is always on the list.

Hardeep Ranu: Oh, really? Okay.

Diana Longden: And it's technically supposed to be someone, a woman working in the medical sciences, but...

You know, make an exception.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, make an exception. You know, my name is always Kamala Harris, but I have that dream of her being a speaker.

Diana Longden: That would be amazing.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, I think maybe Marie Curie. Oh, yeah. Rosalind Franklin, maybe. Okay. Or both of them, I think, would be pretty cool to have and hear about their perspectives of working with so many in such a male dominated field as it was then, I think. Would be pretty cool to have some, for them to be a speaker, and who else?

Who else? [00:32:00] What's her name? The astronaut, Sunita, Sunny Williams. Okay. She might, she would probably be pretty good. I think as a woman in the sciences or engineering who has gone up into space at the international space station and also like hearing about her career path. How do you become an astronaut, and also being a role model as well, I think in, in terms of that, it's like it was something that I aspired to as a young girl.

Really? Yeah. And so I think it's like for other women out there, or, if we had young girls listening to it, or, or even You know, participating in, in that meeting I think it would be pretty good for them to hear this is how a somebody, a woman become, became an astronaut.[00:33:00]

Diana Longden: I love that. Yeah, I think yeah, those are probably my three or four. If you want Marie Curie and Rosalind Franklin.

Hardeep Ranu: Do you have anything else you want to say?

Diana Longden: I haven't mentioned that I get to, so in my role in Faculty Affairs, I report to Carol Bates, who is one of the deans. Representatives to the GCSW from the Office for Faculty Affairs and she's been like the GCSW constant, like longer than really anybody you know, on Leadership Council.

And she's just full of knowledge and really amazing to work for. I've been really fortunate to, to be under her umbrella for the last seven years.

Hardeep Ranu: Oh, okay. That's great. Yeah. I know Carol as well. Yeah. I'd say the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She is definitely the go to person for the [00:34:00] JCSW and I'm hoping.

As in, not just hoping, I'm almost sure that we can get her to show up and do this as well with me. The, in terms of talking to her about it and what her experiences are, because we, you know, we don't often get to hear her overall experience. Right. I mean, maybe she stands up. I mean, she hasn't for a while yet, but since I've joined really stood, stood up and introduced things, it's been a lot of the co chairs who've done that kind of thing or subcommittees.

So I think it would be good for. Others to hear her perspective on the JCSW and the history and other parts that you hear about, but don't necessarily know. Yeah, so Diana you're gonna have to persuade her or, and, or [00:35:00] schedule it.

Diana Longden: I'd be happy to, I'm actually meeting with her in a half hour, so I will tell her that maybe she could be up next.

Yeah.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah.  Okay. Do you have anything else to say about, you know, work changing your work, you know, and what anything else you would want people to know?

Diana Longden: Oh, you know, I'm just grateful. I think I'm grateful for the job and for the people that, like you, that are really invested and that I get to work with because I never would have.

Probably met you if it wasn't for the JCSW. And I, yeah, I'm very grateful that I get to do this and I'll probably keep doing it as long as they let me. So,

Hardeep Ranu: yeah. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, that's, yeah, I'd yeah that's a nice answer. Yeah, good. Okay. Thank you, Diana. Thank [00:36:00] you. For doing this.

Diana Longden: No, I'm happy to.

Hardeep Ranu: Being my very first guinea pig.

Chairing the JCSW with Michaela Tally & Christina Kennedy

In this episode, we find out more about former staff co-chairs of the JCSW, Michaela Tally and Christina Kennedy. We'll hear their experiences and the benefits of having been a member and their experiences of as staff co-chairs.

Michaela Tally, program coordinator in the Office for Postdoctoral Fellows is the current staff co-chair of the community engagement subcommittee.

Christina Kennedy, strategic projects manager in the Office for Research Administration, is the current staff member-at-large for the JCSW.

Harvard Business Review - Management Tip of the Day

Transcript

00;00;10;01 - 00;00;24;14

Hardeep Ranu

So I'm here with Michaela Tally and Christina Kennedy, who were both former coaches, staff coaches at the JCSW. So, Michaela, do you want to introduce yourself first?

00;00;24;17 - 00;00;57;09

Michaela Tally

Sure. I am Michaela Tally. I currently work as a program coordinator in the HMS HCM Office for Postdoctoral Fellows. So we support the research fellows on the quad at HMS and the dental school, as well as the hospital affiliate Post-Docs. And so the total amount of postdocs we support are almost 5000. There's about 850 postdocs on the quad.

00;00;57;11 - 00;01;33;06

Michaela Tally

And I have worked at this position for I'm heading into my seventh year. And overall, I've been at Harvard for 15 years. I briefly previously worked across the river at the postdoc office there, which serves postdocs in the sciences, social sciences, arts and humanities. And prior to that, I worked for the W.E.B. Dubois Institute for African and African American Research, which is now called the Hutchins Center.

00;01;33;09 - 00;01;41;15

Michaela Tally

That's sort of my background here at Harvard. And it's it's been a great 15 years, and it's flown by for sure.

00;01;41;18 - 00;01;45;03

Hardeep Ranu

Christina, what about you? Sure.

00;01;45;06 - 00;02;11;18

Christina Kennedy

Thank you. I'm Christina Kennedy. I'm the strategic projects manager in the Office of Research Administration at Harvard Medical School. Have haven't been around as long as you, too, but it's 11 years at the medical school. My role shifted a little. I came in as an administrator, and then the department grew, and this role kind of grew out of that.

00;02;11;21 - 00;02;48;17

Christina Kennedy

What we do in the Office of Research Administration is help faculty with their pre and post award management and the staff within each department that is helping to prepare the proposals for funding through NIH and NSF and in other entities. Prior to, say, right before I came to the medical school, I was at a consulting company. So it was a big shift from 24 seven billable hours to a much slower pace in academia.

00;02;48;17 - 00;02;50;00

Christina Kennedy

But it's a good change.

00;02;50;01 - 00;03;03;26

Hardeep Ranu

So that's interesting. Christine Cristina They came from a corporate background to to the medical school. It must really be quite a shift.

00;03;03;29 - 00;03;28;00

Christina Kennedy

In well, I'm used to it now, but, you know, when I yeah, when I first came, I mean, you have that client mindset. Things have to get done for the client. And again, everything's done like billable hours. We have portfolios and it was a small education consulting company, but it really was growing and taking off and it was good experience.

00;03;28;00 - 00;03;49;28

Christina Kennedy

But I got to the point where I was like, This isn't my company. You know, they expected you to be 24, seven and years before I had worked at Bentley. And I remember back just sort of that was a good experience for me. I was in public relations then, so I started to look and said, I can't keep up this pace at this consulting company.

00;03;50;01 - 00;03;58;11

Christina Kennedy

And I just started looking at universities again and the medical school. I just fell into that today that I don't think it would happen that way.

00;03;58;13 - 00;04;03;28

Hardeep Ranu

But right here, where were you?

00;04;04;01 - 00;04;37;14

Michaela Tally

So I was working partly for myself for a couple of years before moving over to Harvard, doing a lot of event support and professional organizing prior to that, like in the early 2000, I was actually a teacher and it was great working with the kids, but I did not enjoy the politics of working in a school and it just wasn't a fit for me.

00;04;37;16 - 00;05;08;21

Michaela Tally

And at the time I wasn't sure how to do a career change. I was only a teacher for five years and prior to that I lived in California and had various jobs for family businesses. One was a construction historic restoration construction company. And so I learned a ton on that job, just running the office and managing personnel, coming in and out all day.

00;05;08;23 - 00;05;43;14

Michaela Tally

And then I shifted to teaching. And it's it wasn't it wasn't the career for me being in a classroom. And I didn't quite know how to make the transition to educational administration. I didn't understand that concept. And I did like working with the students one on one, but I didn't really want to be a tutor first day, so I just started working for myself because I had a lot of people who in the summers would hire me to do organizing and support jobs.

00;05;43;14 - 00;06;00;26

Michaela Tally

So yeah, so I kind of accidentally fell into and like says, I don't know how easy would be to make that transition. Now, you know? So people encouraged me because they saw several positions that they're like, You'd be great at this.

00;06;00;29 - 00;06;08;03

Christina Kennedy

Yeah, I didn't know that about you. That's interesting. Mikayla, are you still offering organizational.

00;06;08;03 - 00;06;08;27

Michaela Tally

And event planning.

00;06;08;27 - 00;06;13;21

Hardeep Ranu

Skills on the side?

00;06;13;23 - 00;06;41;13

Michaela Tally

Yeah. So it sort of started when I worked for the family run construction business in California. They used to do one job at a time. And then the Oakland, Berkeley Hills fire happened and hundreds of houses very expensive, like two, $3 million houses all burned down in a fire. And so suddenly they were running five jobs at a time and they didn't know how to scale up their administrative stuff.

00;06;41;13 - 00;07;07;21

Michaela Tally

And everything. So I just I learned a lot. I just sort of naturally knew how to do it and learned how to do it on the job, helping and yeah, so it's something I like doing. It's, it's hard to be a to own your own business, you know, I'm not I'm not great at knowing my work, you know, 20 years ago.

00;07;07;21 - 00;07;19;06

Michaela Tally

I am I'm better at that now. I wasn't as good as speaking with People want you to organize their whole house for $10 an hour, and they don't want to pay $30 an hour.

00;07;19;08 - 00;07;28;11

Hardeep Ranu

So by organizing, you mean like for like people whose offices are in disarray, that kind of professional organizer?

00;07;28;18 - 00;07;55;04

Michaela Tally

Yes, Like a lot of people who had home businesses and they had no organizational system, no system for paying their bills and no system for just getting anything done. And usually the businesses were growing. So, you know, when the business started, it was easy to manage the administrative stuff. But now they actually were out there doing the work and dealing with clients and didn't know how to organize their home offices.

00;07;55;04 - 00;08;15;24

Michaela Tally

And they realized, Oh, I need someone to help me get this started. And then oftentimes I would consult with them. Like, I think you really need to hire someone to help you with your bookkeeping, Like you're not a bookkeeper and you know, you shouldn't be hiring me for $30 an hour to create file labels. So I sort of help them with that part as well.

00;08;16;01 - 00;08;34;11

Michaela Tally

That was interesting. Yeah, I didn't do hoarding. I couldn't. Yeah, I'm not a psychologist. I yes, a lot of people, a lot of my clients would give me all the organizing books they'd been buying over the years. And I said, okay, I don't know that.

00;08;34;11 - 00;08;35;18

Hardeep Ranu

Interesting. Interesting.

00;08;35;22 - 00;08;37;06

Michaela Tally

Yeah.

00;08;37;09 - 00;08;38;05

Christina Kennedy

That's funny.

00;08;38;07 - 00;08;56;24

Michaela Tally

It's interesting. It was fun. Did you grow up in California? No, I lived there as a little kid. I had about eight, so and then moved back. My family's all from Rhode Island, so we went to Massachusetts in between third and fourth grade.

00;08;56;27 - 00;09;01;07

Christina Kennedy

Interesting. Funny. I could know somebody for a few years and not know all.

00;09;01;09 - 00;09;12;01

Michaela Tally

All about them. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I definitely I pop back and forth between Massachusetts and California, but I've been here now since 97, so.

00;09;12;04 - 00;09;17;06

Christina Kennedy

Okay, I'm stuck in back for good. Maybe not.

00;09;17;08 - 00;09;24;05

Michaela Tally

You never know. I am a Sagittarius. We don't like to commit.

00;09;24;08 - 00;09;37;09

Christina Kennedy

I'm a little like that too. I'm a Leo, but I get to a point and I'm coming at the point now I've been in. I noticed that a seven year mark, I call it like the seven year itch. I start to get like, So what's next?

00;09;37;09 - 00;09;37;26

Michaela Tally

Right?

00;09;37;29 - 00;09;42;27

Christina Kennedy

You know, job wise, where I live, it's interesting. I'm right at that mark again.

00;09;42;27 - 00;09;46;09

Hardeep Ranu

Interesting. See what's going to what's to come for?

00;09;46;09 - 00;10;12;01

Michaela Tally

Christina Yeah, Yeah. I think everyone needs, you know, I'm in that seven year mark, and I'm sort of, you know, I've got, I've, I know the job really well. It's, there's a little bit of a routine which obviously got disrupted the last year and yeah, it's like, okay, well, what can I do now in this role? We're a small two person office.

00;10;12;05 - 00;10;29;04

Hardeep Ranu

So like I mentioned, you guys were to go both upward from my couch as the GSW. How did you get to that position and what kind of leadership advice we did you take away?

00;10;29;06 - 00;11;09;10

Michaela Tally

All right. Well, I can talk about how I got into the juiciest MBA, which is literally falling into it is a good description. I had went down to an event because our office is right downstairs from where the events are usually held in the Waterhouse room and my boss is one of the speakers. So I went to the event and I ran into a couple of colleagues there and then I ran into them on campus and it was Whitney who was at the time the staff vice co-chair, and she said, you know, have you thought about running to join?

00;11;09;12 - 00;11;33;20

Michaela Tally

Because I had joined by then and then you and I didn't even occur to me. And she just encouraged me to. And I did I've done a lot of work on women's issues, you know, as an undergrad and beyond. And it's something, you know, women's issues, inequality and they're hiring and all that is something I've always really cared about.

00;11;33;20 - 00;11;58;24

Michaela Tally

So so I took a shot and got the position. And I've learned a lot about what it's like to work in a large institution like Harvard or Harvard Medical School, being part of the Leadership Council. Yeah, it's been really valuable. How about you, Christina.

00;11;58;26 - 00;12;18;20

Christina Kennedy

It's interesting, Mikayla, because I think I came into it around the same time then because I remember Whitney being sacked. It might have been even the Dean's awards and she was on her way out of the position. And I remember going up and talking to her after and saying, Oh, I didn't know you did this because we were together on the fourth floor of Gordon Hall.

00;12;18;23 - 00;12;46;08

Christina Kennedy

And I just went same kind of thing. Oh, this event sounds interesting. Maybe I can meet different people. I never really got to interact too much with faculty in my role. So all those reasons and then probably Diana encouraged me about community engagement, but I naturally sort of fell into that committee because it's I have an interest in always engaging people.

00;12;46;10 - 00;13;12;11

Christina Kennedy

And then the whole remote work thing, we had started to think about my department and flexibility in the workplace and all those different topics were of interest and still are to me. So I naturally kind of fell into community engagement. And then from there I think it was Diane that asked me and recommended that I run. But like Mikayla, I was like, I don't know, I'll just give it a shot.

00;13;12;11 - 00;13;24;11

Christina Kennedy

No. And I look back, I'm thinking, Wow. And then once I get into it, I was thrilled and I feel like I walked away with a lot of skills that I wouldn't have gotten my everyday job.

00;13;24;14 - 00;13;53;14

Michaela Tally

I completely agree with that. And yeah, just seeing how a committee works like that and the process that it goes through when you're working on a large I think it's a pretty large committee committee. The leadership council is about 12 people, right? So there's a lot of different factors and people at the leadership council meetings and I love how, you know, everyone has their ideas.

00;13;53;14 - 00;14;26;22

Michaela Tally

So respectfully and collegially, which is what you hope. And in a situation like that and I know as a as the vice co-chair, I sort of held back a little a lot that first year and sort of listened and watched and tried to figure out, you know, how this work. And it was amazing to be in the room with some of the faculty because like you, Christina, I would we don't we don't interact that much with the faculty.

00;14;26;24 - 00;14;47;28

Michaela Tally

So that was really valuable. And meeting all of you, executive staff co-chairs, I would never have, you know, our paths, Christina and I, our paths may have crossed, but Hardeep and other folks like that. And that's been so, so valuable to grow the network within the same quality. Yeah.

00;14;48;01 - 00;15;11;13

Christina Kennedy

Even the staff connection. And I have to give her deep credit. I forgot how deep you were. Staff vice co-chair, I think before me. So, like McKayla, I kind of sat back, watched, listened, used to start the meeting with an icebreaker, which I don't think anybody had ever done. And it was like a great way to get to know people on another level too.

00;15;11;16 - 00;15;18;08

Michaela Tally

So yeah, that was a great thing that was added because I think part was right after me as staff co-chair.

00;15;18;11 - 00;15;19;00

Christina Kennedy

That's right.

00;15;19;02 - 00;15;20;23

Michaela Tally

Yeah.

00;15;20;25 - 00;15;46;29

Christina Kennedy

And then I have to say I was with Mariam and we did it during COVID. We shared during COVID. So that was a whole other level of, Oh boy, how are we going to make all this happen on Zoom and remotely? And it was interesting, interesting to watch. I mean, everybody had a different opinion, but at the end of the day, we all sort of came together and made it work and it brought more people through virtually, I guess.

00;15;46;29 - 00;15;52;21

Michaela Tally

Absolutely.

00;15;52;24 - 00;16;02;16

Hardeep Ranu

Yeah, because I definitely think that we got the attendance just went went way up because, you know, you could join from.

00;16;02;16 - 00;16;03;26

Christina Kennedy

Wherever you were.

00;16;03;29 - 00;16;27;22

Hardeep Ranu

Versus coming to, let's say, drive across from Mass General to Longwood, which, you know, can take any you can pick your time on that. How long how long it takes to get over to Longwood from over there. But what was your experience that about it that was unique, That is.

00;16;27;22 - 00;17;00;17

Christina Kennedy

Unique for me. The part of sharing with the faculty and back to that point, because staff and faculty, we interact, but not that way. I mean, I think that's really unique and I was fortunate that my coaches saw the skills I had that she probably didn't have right. You know, in ministry actively. And so that just knowing, like Mikayla mentioned earlier, navigating through a university or institution such as ours, faculty would see only one side of it.

00;17;00;19 - 00;17;14;28

Christina Kennedy

So I feel like we complemented each other. And she learned from me and I learned from her too. That's a big takeaway for me. I think in addition to all the other folks too, in that room on the zoom.

00;17;15;00 - 00;17;44;19

Hardeep Ranu

Right? Yeah, That's interesting about networking, having worked with faculty or not working with them, which is completely the opposite for me and I almost all of the stuff I do is with faculty and has been. So that's an interesting perspective for me as well that that that would be an experience that you, you that this gave you gave Mikayla.

00;17;44;21 - 00;18;16;10

Michaela Tally

Yeah it's interesting because I feel like I my experience it's almost been in reverse because I went right into the leadership group and now I'm actually working with the Community Engagement subcommittee and I'm the staff co-chair for that. And I, I can feel at every meeting and every interaction, all everything I learned, being on the leadership council, like understanding how the faculty need to engage.

00;18;16;13 - 00;18;49;00

Michaela Tally

Because there's we have I'm actually there's two faculty co-chairs and and knowing to assert myself and not letting you know just default. You don't need to always defer to the faculty co-chair you are co-chair. And that's been really that was a really valuable thing. My my co-chair on leadership Stephanie was great. She had a ton of experience leading things and I just loved her style and we worked great together.

00;18;49;02 - 00;19;20;03

Michaela Tally

And then, you know, seeing what her deep how and I forget who your faculty co-chair was, but. Oh, right. Valerie who I and watching how you guys transitioned and the things you implemented like the icebreaker and the much more formal agenda and theme. And so bringing some of that those things I learned in Leadership Council into the the subcommittee, which has been great, it's been great to be putting that into action.

00;19;20;06 - 00;19;22;10

Michaela Tally

Oh, with a new group of people.

00;19;22;17 - 00;19;25;24

Christina Kennedy

I'm glad we have you doing that. Michaela

00;19;25;26 - 00;19;49;11

Michaela Tally

Yeah, I question about doing it. And then I said, You know what, We need a staff person. Yes. On that committee. And I was I was, was concerned that the faculty were going to be too busy and everything was going to fall on me. And so it's not happening. And I sort of helped make sure it wasn't happening.

00;19;49;11 - 00;19;51;10

Michaela Tally

But yeah, but it's been great so far.

00;19;51;10 - 00;20;05;06

Christina Kennedy

Yeah. And that's interesting to the balance that we have to keep of a lot of things when you're with this group. I mean it becomes a lot of time you put in, but so you do have to balance, I think so.

00;20;05;06 - 00;20;28;27

Hardeep Ranu

Michaela it sounds like you were like, okay, I learned from the leadership council about making sure that I wasn't going to be doing all the administrative stuff for the community engagement. But, you know, I can also assert myself in, in when you can see things going in a particular direction or.

00;20;28;29 - 00;20;49;13

Michaela Tally

Yeah, yeah, there were, there are times when I don't always think the way everyone else does. So sometimes you have and I learned being on leadership council that you have to speak up even if your ideas are a little different from everyone else's. Or sometimes it's the will. This is how things actually work.

00;20;49;16 - 00;20;50;03

Christina Kennedy

Right?

00;20;50;06 - 00;21;12;26

Michaela Tally

Like logistically to get stuff done. So let's make sure to think about that. And I you don't always want to be the contrarian, which I don't think I am, but I learned that it was really important to speak up when you had a differing opinion. Even if the group went in the other direction, it was important to make your voice heard.

00;21;12;28 - 00;21;15;01

Michaela Tally

That was a huge lesson.

00;21;15;04 - 00;21;32;25

Christina Kennedy

I love that I was thinking the same thing with Kayla. It's like I found my voice. I feel like a leadership council more so for me than I think meeting engagement. I was just getting my feet wet when I coach that. And but what I did love about coaching and engagement was I was able to recruit some people like Melanie.

00;21;33;00 - 00;21;44;27

Christina Kennedy

So Melanie was one of the show, but some of the people that had been I've seen be active since then, which is nice, and now melodies and leadership counts.

00;21;44;27 - 00;22;27;09

Hardeep Ranu

And so I feel like community engagement, when I first started, it was like the one that no, the subcommittee that nobody wanted to. Yeah. On. But now I think I'm really hoping that we've, we've turned it around a bit and made it, you know like no, actually community engagement is really important. You know, you get to like decide on a couple of events and you know, what more can be done to either get people to attend or know more about the GSW or just just in general, you know, have visibility, I think.

00;22;27;12 - 00;23;26;15

Hardeep Ranu

And like and hopefully there's a podcast as one of those things as well, and people will hopefully listen to and find enjoyable and find informative in in terms of just learning about the JCSW as and as well as people's experiences with it and the the kind of things that you take away. Because I would definitely say echo exactly what both of you were saying in terms of my experience being a co-chair in in terms of understanding how to lead a meeting, which I'm still probably not that good at because but but I try and just in general, you know, working with people that I would never have of gotten to work with and I know

00;23;26;16 - 00;23;37;13

Hardeep Ranu

format that, you know, we as staff members don't normally are in that kind of a format either.

00;23;37;15 - 00;23;38;27

Christina Kennedy

Absolutely.

00;23;39;00 - 00;23;57;01

Michaela Tally

Yeah. I'm in a support role, so I'm rarely leaving a meeting. You know, I'm setting up a meeting, but I'm not generally leading a meeting. So yeah, the first time I believe the meeting was like, okay, what do I do now? And I just sort of that was my my first year of sort of hanging back and watching.

00;23;57;01 - 00;24;09;11

Michaela Tally

I was like, okay, that the agenda, you know, leave breathing space or ideas and stuff every minute with word. Yeah.

00;24;09;14 - 00;24;34;23

Christina Kennedy

I learned that too. That's an interesting one. Leave some breathing space. I always was very regimented with agenda setting them up and so forth too. And I learned that as well. I think it's just having a little breathing space. Maybe not everything is going to get accomplished. And then also sort of like meeting to meeting for me from my role that I'm in and then just JCSW is like reading the room too, and getting an idea of how people look on it.

00;24;34;23 - 00;24;47;01

Christina Kennedy

That takes a little time. You know what our personalities is everybody contributing or speaking or sometimes you have to sit back and really watch and listen to.

00;24;47;04 - 00;25;06;15

Michaela Tally

Yeah, I think that's an important aspect of leadership is is listening and reading the room and, you know, that's sometimes the best ideas are going to come from other people or in a place you don't expect. So you need to allow space for those to happen.

00;25;06;17 - 00;25;40;16

Hardeep Ranu

I think it's interesting what you're saying actually about breathing space, because I have I mentioned this a couple of times that I get this from the Harvard Business Review. I get this management of the day, which quite a few of them, almost all of them are always very interesting to read. And one of the things was that they had said about meetings was the you know, you don't have to have them to this strict sort of agenda.

00;25;40;18 - 00;26;04;08

Hardeep Ranu

You know, that the tie you know, if you say, okay, this is going to take 10 minutes, you don't have to make it B, if it goes on, then you let it go on because it seems important And, you know, there was some some good tips about about meetings as well in there. And that was one of the things that I remember from it.

00;26;04;10 - 00;26;31;26

Hardeep Ranu

I mean, they had other things about whether, you know, to really think about and it doesn't kind of apply to the leadership council meetings because they are you know, they they are necessary to drive the the programing and just things like that. But one of the things was like, well, who really needs to be at the meeting was was one of the things and do you really need to have the meeting was another.

00;26;31;26 - 00;26;32;07

Michaela Tally

Right.

00;26;32;13 - 00;26;48;06

Christina Kennedy

That's been a big one we've been tossing around in my department to do we really need the meeting, you know, what's the length of the meeting? If there's a lot of discussion, I think sense of it too, and be in virtual people's time. And it's interesting.

00;26;48;08 - 00;26;53;12

Michaela Tally

Yeah. And I've noticed a lot of people now they're setting up meetings for 45 minutes rather than an hour.

00;26;53;12 - 00;26;54;03

Christina Kennedy

Yes.

00;26;54;05 - 00;27;06;17

Michaela Tally

Because I think sometimes people get in that mindset like it's an hour meeting. We're going to be there for an hour. And if it's 45, you might get the same amount done right. But it gives people that breathing room in between.

00;27;06;24 - 00;27;21;14

Hardeep Ranu

That's how I started to deal with meetings. But yeah, I started to make it 45 minutes visits. You don't need an hour. And I think it's also being respectful, respectful of people's time as well.

00;27;21;17 - 00;27;27;18

Michaela Tally

Yeah, I was just going to say that they probably appreciate you not taking up the whole hour on their calendar.

00;27;27;20 - 00;27;28;11

Christina Kennedy

Right?

00;27;28;13 - 00;27;38;18

Hardeep Ranu

Exactly. What would be one you professional skill or one and or one you personal skill that you would really like to develop.

00;27;38;21 - 00;28;03;23

Christina Kennedy

I could go with. Let me start with the personal one, because I've been working on that a little bit more mindfulness in my day personally and professionally. And I think during COVID, again, it pushed me more to do things like when we sat at this zoom, I heard you all talking about meditating. So for me, I'm really trying to make that change that every day.

00;28;03;23 - 00;28;41;25

Christina Kennedy

That's hopefully some form of meditation, breathing, yoga, whatever it is, and then transferring that into my department at workplace, which is a little interesting too, because not everybody's open to that. But I took a really interesting leading mindfully through the university. It was like an eight week course and it really got me thinking about, okay, here's what I'm trying to do personally, and then how do I bring it into the workplace For some folks in my department who might be like, what we're going to pause and breathe at the beginning of the meeting.

00;28;41;27 - 00;28;56;02

Christina Kennedy

So I've been trying to do small things, you know, not even as blatant as that, but it's it's it's a challenge. It's a challenge. But I'm working on it so personally and professionally.

00;28;56;04 - 00;29;08;18

Hardeep Ranu

I do want to hear more about what's leading mindfully. But now you brought that up that yeah, we can I'm I think that would be interesting to talk about. But Michaela, first of all, with you.

00;29;08;20 - 00;29;38;08

Michaela Tally

Well, so I say for personally something I need to work on and haven't yet is I really want to learn Spanish. And when the pandemic came, I said, Oh, now I'm going to learn Spanish. And now I just watched Hamilton on Disney plus 5 million times. So that is still on my list. And I really need to I know there's a lot of great apps to do it, but that would be a great thing.

00;29;38;11 - 00;29;57;25

Michaela Tally

And then professionally, I think this is a common one and I don't have a ton of chance to do it, which this was another thing I learned that faces you. I'm not afraid of speaking in public. I just haven't done a lot of it. I mean, I was a teacher, so I step in front of a classroom and that was very different.

00;29;57;28 - 00;30;21;17

Michaela Tally

And I did a lot of theater stuff as a teenager, so I'm not afraid of speaking in front of a group, but I haven't practiced it very much. So it's something I feel like professionally. I should probably push myself. I am really in a support role, so not really needed, but there's opportunities and yeah, I'd like to improve that.

00;30;21;20 - 00;30;37;05

Christina Kennedy

You know what, Mikayla? I still every year say the same thing about Spanish. How deep is probably hurt because I took Spanish for years in undergrad and then I just didn't use it. And I kept saying, You know what? I'm going to go back to school and take Spanish at the extension school as it happened.

00;30;37;05 - 00;30;55;07

Michaela Tally

Yeah, All right. Well, you could do it for free, right? Exactly. I took a couple semesters. I have a couple of friends who are bilingual and. Yeah, I just. It would be nice and just, you know, I work with a lot of the facilities folks on campus right? And they're all bilingual. I like it'd be nice to speak a little Spanish with them.

00;30;55;07 - 00;30;56;17

Michaela Tally

Absolutely.

00;30;56;20 - 00;30;58;27

Christina Kennedy

Yeah, that's on my list too.

00;30;59;00 - 00;31;06;12

Hardeep Ranu

Yeah. So that's the extension school. But we have staff can get.

00;31;06;14 - 00;31;13;21

Christina Kennedy

Hardeep is like the poster child for the extension school. She's always encouraging me. When are you going to do it? When are you going to do it?

00;31;13;23 - 00;31;27;29

Michaela Tally

Well, it's true. It's a it's a resource I tend to forget about. Even though we do it every six weeks, we do orientation where the benefits they talk about the top program. I'm like, Oh yeah, with the reimbursement free classes.

00;31;28;00 - 00;31;31;06

Christina Kennedy

Never too late. I keep telling myself, Right.

00;31;31;08 - 00;31;33;09

Michaela Tally

I have to go in a couple of minutes.

00;31;33;11 - 00;31;35;12

Hardeep Ranu

Okay, Michaela, thank you. Thank you so much.

00;31;35;12 - 00;31;36;18

Michaela Tally

Thank you. Nice to see.

00;31;36;18 - 00;31;39;16

Christina Kennedy

You. And learn more about you. Michaela.

00;31;39;18 - 00;31;41;07

Michaela Tally

It's a nice conversation. It really.

00;31;41;07 - 00;31;42;07

Christina Kennedy

Was. I enjoyed.

00;31;42;07 - 00;31;46;00

Michaela Tally

This. I learned a lot about MIchaela.

00;31;46;00 - 00;31;47;05

Christina Kennedy

Thank you.

00;31;47;08 - 00;31;58;09

Hardeep Ranu

Yeah. Okay. Thanks, Christina. That was wonderful. I really appreciate you taking the time to do something different. Be vulnerable, you know, not afraid to fail.

00;31;58;11 - 00;32;12;08

Christina Kennedy

Thank you, Hardeep. You made us very comfortable. And I think this is a great opportunity for other people if they want to share. And it's just a great chance to just to do podcast. Thanks for your work on all this.

00;32;12;10 - 00;32;22;20

Hardeep Ranu

Thank you. Thank you. 

Engaging the Community

This week's episode is a chat with the faculty co-chairs of the community engagement subcommittee, Lilit Garibyan and J. Asia Korecka.

Transcript: 

Asia_Lilit_18NOV2022_mixdown

Hardeep Ranu: [00:00:00] Hi, I am Hardeep Ranu and I, today I have Lilit Darubian and Asia Koreka,  today with me for this episode of the JCSW podcast.  Lilit, do you want to introduce yourself?

Lilit Garibyan: Sure.  thank you so much for having us on this podcast and thank you for putting this together.  so I'm Lilit Garibian. I'm a physician scientist, innovator, and a board certified dermatologist working at Amash General Wellness Center for photo medicine.

I see patients and I also do translational research to solve unmet needs,  in medicine and bring new therapies. To patients and I'm really excited to talk about my passion in innovation and [00:01:00] translational research here. I'm also the co-chair of the JCSW Community

Hardeep Ranu: Engagement Committee. Asia, what about you?

Do you wanna introduce yourself as well?

Asia Korecka: Hi, I am Asia Korecka.  I'm a instructor at the neurology department at BRI Women's Hospital. I, my focus and my research is Parkinson's Disease and other genetic neurodegenerative diseases. And I,  throughout my work and my many years, I've been focusing on therapy development, specifically on gene therapies.

 but recently I've actually pivoted also to neuroimmunology and actually connecting these two fields with,  therapeutic development and immunology through microbiome. The impact of microbiome on, on neuro development. It's been a great ride at Brigham.  actually came to Longwood only a few years ago and,  it's, it's the translational impact here has been really, um.

Something that keeps me, that is very passionate to me since we actually have patients [00:02:00] downstairs and we do research on stem cell based research on the stem cells from these patients upstairs in our lab. So that's been a really,  an amazing adventure.  I've been an active member of GCSW for about five years, I believe now.

And I have joined the development career development committee. for four years and now I'm a co chair of the community engagement at the GCSW. It's been a real pleasure and honor to work with the wonderful women here and promoting the values of equity, diversity in our work, but also in healthcare. And that's something that I've actually been really looking into a lot more, especially since my field of gene therapies is quite a question of,  to be actually equitable for everyone.

is quite expensive at this point, whereas the question of that being available to all people and, and gene therapies being very successful therapies, if applied well, that these can actually, people can reach them [00:03:00] out. So that's something that I'm, I'm quite thinking a lot about while doing research at the bench.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay, great. Thanks. So, you both have great backgrounds, sort of interesting research areas. Lilit, so I,  both of you have talked about translational research as well.  so I'm a project manager at Harvard Catalyst, so obviously for me, translational research is,  Very important for the people that we work with.

So I like, Do you want to talk about what part of that that you really enjoy? And, you know, we are also interested in innovation as well. And, you know, it's sort of like looking at problems from a different perspective as well is something that our program is interested in as well.

Lilit Garibyan: Yeah, no, thank you so much.

I think that's something that I learned along the way within Harvard. So I came to Harvard in 2002. As a MD PhD student and my PhD was in immunology, you know, I've been in academia. My entire life [00:04:00] and early on, you know, in academia, there was this sense that sort of,  commercialization and working with industry is sort of like the dark and evil side and true academicians really stay away from that.

But it wasn't until I started my postdoc with Dr. Rox Anderson at Wellman Center for Oral Medicine that I learned the true value of, sort of, innovation and commercialization and what that really meant. You know, what I learned was that research and invention matters much more. If it makes a difference for the patient, and if you're able to commercialize your research, your invention, and bring it to the patients.

Because if you think about it, invention is really an idea or technology, right? An idea alone is not valuable if you can't find a way to bring that to a patient. And to do that, you really have to work with industry. to commercialize that idea and bring it [00:05:00] to market because that's when it really adds value to patients.

And as a physician scientist, that has always been my dream. You know, I always wanted to invent something or discover something that then I could bring to patients and see them benefit from it because that truly encompasses what like the mission of being physician scientist is. And What happened is like during my postdoc, I wanted to understand a side effect from a therapy because I thought if we could figure out the mechanism of, for example, how Prolonged cooling is affecting cutaneous nerves, then we could develop a better therapy with cooling to use this as a method of treating pain and itch, which I knew affected many patients with skin diseases.

 and that's why I joined this lab to sort of understand that. And in the process, I learned what it really takes to kind of take an idea or a problem from conception all the way. To developing proof of concept, IP, intellectual property, and then [00:06:00] spinning it out. into a startup company to actually develop a commercial product and that had a profound impact on me like being involved in that entire process and learning it and being part of it.

And that led me to actually start an initiative called the Magic Wand Initiative to try to teach this for other clinicians because I think we're Things have changed a lot since 2002, but I think when I was a student at Harvard doing the MD and PhD, we didn't really teach that to our students, and I do think that in academia we really have this responsibility now to forge a more collaborative biomedical community dedicated to improving the lives of the patients by developing collaboration, right, between industry, academia, And all the other key players.

So we could work collaboratively to commercialize some of our inventions and our ideas. So we could more efficiently and effectively bring them to the [00:07:00] patients. And that's what I'm really passionate about, you know, like finding out ways of how we do that effectively, where we each have our mutual goals and responsibilities, and we each play our own best roles.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay, great. That sounds so interesting and I'd love to hear more about this magic wand initiative as well, but so Asia, what about you? I mean, I heard that you you've gone from sort of neuroimmunology which Lilla I gather your PhDs in immunology as well and for me Immunology was the thing that made my eyes glaze over.

I think it was like something, so you've gone from some neuroimmunology, you looked at the microbiome, which a few years ago we did a microbiome pilot grant initiative as well. So,  all of that was very interesting. And, and so then now you're moving, you're moving on to this sub gene therapy in Parkinson's and I'm just kind of interested as how you moved.

from in that direction. How did that happen?

Asia Korecka: Yeah, no, this is good. I still [00:08:00] wonder how these things happen. So I've been always focused on neurodegeneration and I did my PhD in Parkinson's disease gene therapy as kind of,  as, as an aspect to look at it. I studied actually, actually axon regeneration and axon guidance.

 and we were thinking Cause I come, I came from a lab that focused on spinal cord regeneration and there's some signals in Parkinson's disease that seem to also impact the axon growth. So we thought if we can manipulate those can, can that be beneficial as well through gene therapy? And then,  I came to here to Boston, to McLean hospital to learn,  a little bit.

new modeling of Parkinson's disease by using stem cell derived,  neurons from patients. With this new technology that,  received a Nobel prize few years ago, you can actually take,  skin cells from patients and derive, make stem cells out of them. And then we can actually make any cell we want. So this is very exciting technology for [00:09:00] neurodegenerative diseases, especially because of course we cannot get biopsies of brains from patients.

So this way we can actually look at their neurons in a dish.

Hardeep Ranu: Oh, people don't generally want to give up a piece of their brain.

Asia Korecka: Yeah. So it's hard, it's hard to study. It's hard to study in a patient that, that still needs the treatments and still, very often still needs the diagnosis. So that's, that's, that's the problem in our field a little bit.

Sometimes the true diagnosis comes after the patient passes away when we do autopsies of their brains. to finally say, okay, so this indeed was Parkinson's or it's farmers because we can now find, look at their neurons. And so in through it here,  with this new technology, we can, of course, finally study their cells and study what happens with these cells a lot earlier.

So that, that was fantastic. That's that part of the translation that for me was very attractive. I used to work with, I still do with,   in vivo animal models, but now I have this patient model, a patient, [00:10:00] and then.  by learning this technique at McLean Hospital, at Dr. Elias Dixon's lab, I, after a few years, went to, here to Brigham and Women's Hospital to the Neurology Department because what really very much attracted me is that connection between clinic that we have downstairs to our labs at the top.

 and so Dr. Vikram Kurama, the PI that I work with now, he sees patients every week on Friday and the same patients we have upstairs. We have We have their stem cells, and we have their neurons growing. So it's just That, that idea of this translation and, and these patients actually wanting to be part of our studies and, and, and volunteering for that and, and wanting to be involved is really something that got me tick, you know, like it got me really excited.

And I actually work now on a, So Lilit was talking about commercialization of products,  development,  IP and commercialization of products for,  patients,  large number of [00:11:00] patients. I actually work a little bit on the other side as well, is actually personalized medicine and gene therapies for N of one or N of more, but meaning N of few.

 and so in collaboration with Dr Timothy, you at Boston Children's Hospital, we're actually working on developing,  gene therapies for for very few patients which are affected by ultra rare diseases. And so this is a market that's So recently companies were not interested in producing treatments for these patients.

A, very difficult, very hard to understand. No one really knows mechanisms of these because there's not much research about it. And then drug development is very costly. And if you don't have the good biological basis, which we don't because we're such ultra diseases, that's. It's not few people in the study, then developing a drug is also hard to then go through,  you know, a company based kind of cost benefits,  process.

And so Dr. Timothy, you actually, [00:12:00]  started basically a program where,  he, he develops antisense oligonucleotide based treatments for N of one and a few,  where for really specific patients looking at their gene mutation and designing gene therapies for them. I worked on. this type of gene therapies for Parkinson's disease, where we also licensed,  made an AP.

It was actually a very interesting project. So this connection now where Dr. Yu's lab and Dr. Glenn's lab, where I actually have stem cell,  cells from this patient that we are at the same time developing gene therapies. So I can now validate this gene therapy on his neurons. in a dish before we actually go into clinic and this is to me extremely important because it also not only validates the treatment but also it de risks the treatment because gene therapies are very successful but there's also a very  there's recently been some shade coming over because there were some problems with,  safety.[00:13:00]

And so actually what we're really focusing on now using these stem cell human patient tools is to actually de risk these treatments. So see, cause we can study them for a long term. So. What is happening with this neuron that we gave the gene therapy? Because, you know, acute toxicity is one, but also long term toxicity is another.

Is there an effect? And that's something that we've been really, have been really involved with and very, very strong passion about that because,  I think that will, that's the next step. that the field needs to go.  not only animal models, which I think in a way they, they add very much, but we still need a human system before we actually inject this gene therapy that can have consequence for the rest of the lives, right?

It's not a drug that you add one pill and you need to take another one,  because you know, the drug is being screened. No, it's, it's,  it's, it's a long term process. So

Hardeep Ranu: one of the things that, that I have Noticed and just hearing the two of you speak is is that with [00:14:00] the J. C. S. W. That I have found is that you know, I get to meet people I would normally have never met before.

I mean, I wonder if both of you could sort of speak about that aspect of the J. C. S. W. And what what that means as well for both of you for your careers or or, you know, and just in general.

Lilit Garibyan: Thank you.  so you make a very good point. And I think Harvard is a very large community. place. I didn't meet my PH, my postdoc mentor while I was here for the first 10 years.

I met him during like residency interviews for dermatology. And I think, you know, we can do better job in connecting people, getting to know each other and then becoming an asset or resource for one another. And that's what I love about J. C. S. W. Because every time I come there, I meet new people and I make new connections.

And that's what kind of promoted me to become engaged with this [00:15:00] committee because I do think we have so many amazing. scientists, amazing clinicians, amazing administrators, and just female leaders all across, but we don't have the opportunities to sort of meet them because we're all so busy with our own careers and our own work, and we're also spread out within the campus.

 so I think kind of creating engagements, creating lectures, networking events, whatever it might be, even this podcast, I mean, for us to be able to. Learn about each other and how we could help each other is very critical. I mean, I've seen that work so well with this Magic Wand initiative that we're doing.

Our goal is to really promote clinicians to engage in problem based innovations because clinicians are in the forefront of patient care. They have the front row seats for what the clinical problems are that affect [00:16:00] patients. Patients come and tell them, yet they're never sort of given the opportunity or they've never been able to make the connections and get in touch with the resources and the know how.

To work on solving those problems, right? But they exist because we're in this amazing research community. It's just that nobody has taken the time to facilitate and bring those connections. And we've been able to do this successfully with our program where we ask the clinicians to identify the problems and make a 10 minute presentation just about the facts of the problem.

No solutions. We just want you to tell us what the problem is. And I arranged for them to come and Do that presentation in front of engineers, scientists, researchers, PIs who like were so fascinated by listening to what the problems are, and they're not exposed to it because they don't take care of patients, and that organically created this amazing collaboration [00:17:00] between the clinicians and the scientists to work together on the unmet need because the clinician knows the problem.

They know how to test it in patients. They know what it needs to be. To be successful in clinic, and the researchers have the tools and the know how. It's just creating that opportunity to engage them both together. And I kind of see that parallel in the JCW community engagement too. It's like, you know, how do we bring people together where we can both help each other?

Like we could both share, okay, what are our assets? What are our resources? And how can we work together in a way? That we both benefit and help each other right by sharing our capabilities. So,  we hope that this year, you know, with Michaela and Asia, like we work. On trying to create opportunities like that for engaging women all across Harvard, engaging community people and how we could help people outside of Harvard [00:18:00] too, and connecting them to become resources and assets for one another.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, that's great. Asia, what about you? What have you found in terms of, you know, the networking? other opportunities that the JCSW is giving? Yeah,

Asia Korecka: so I, when I became faculty, I wanted to get involved,  with the community. I was at McLean Hospital, which was beautiful, but I felt I wanted also look a little bit outside.

And so I started asking around, what are the opportunities for women faculty at the Harvard Medical School to, to To meet people, to get inspired to, to learn new things and to also make a difference. And then I was introduced to JCSW,  which I went to the first meeting and I was like, that's it. This is, this is where I want to be.

I was so impressed and inspired by the diversity of the group,  with pretty much. Every type of research position, staff, faculty [00:19:00] there at different levels of the careers,  people like me who just starting and people who've been around for a while and just know ins and outs of everything. And yet everyone just being there on equal terms and discussing the microphone was being passed around to everyone who just.

Something to say,  and actually the first session was about,   the unconscious bias in a workplace. And I was, Oh gosh, this is it. This is what me and my friends, we come from an international background with many different nationalities, we get exposed to all the time, you know, I'm Polish and sometimes I get, you know, extra checkup at the airport just because of my last name, I have friends who are, you know, from different skin tones.

We all have different stories about, you know, do you want to put your picture on the CV or not? Those kinds of questions that come up all the time. And so that first session to me was, wow, this is really a place where I can hear, I can learn, and I can be listened to.  so one thing that [00:20:00] JCW just taught me a lot,  it taught me a lot about thinking about,  our community.

In a way where we are all part of one and we can all contribute,  it also, you know, there was another session, which I thought was initially like, well, that's kind of crazy, but it was about financing and women, how we need to finance better. And I came in kind of going like, ah, this is going to be interesting.

And it turned out to be. Super, super good for me because yes, it was eye opening. That's, you know, also the statistics he presented were just like eye opening and, and, you know, so then I've talked with my husband, like, I think we need to kind of think about this more. And, and I've learned a lot,  and about leadership,  and how we can be women leaders.

who are compassionate, who are powerful and who are understanding and making a difference for everyone. And I think that that's something that this year, especially we are really trying to dig into as well as to how can we Be good leaders in today's [00:21:00] world and today's very fast paced world. And I think I'm very, very looking forward to that.

And so this is diversity that we have of everyone from so many different places and work and experiences is something that really And so I've been,  at the,   involved with the career development,  subcommittee, which was really great. And we, we've done a lot of cool projects, especially during COVID.

We really took a, kind of an initiative to like, how can we still develop career as women who, Do get impacted by children staying at home more because of COVID. Unfortunately, the statistics has shown that there is, there's, there was a impact of that on our career development. And so that's actually something I'm very passionate as well is how to be a successful, a successful working mom.

That's something that I actually, I talk a lot to people about and,  something that's not, you know, we don't get courses about that, but maybe we should.

Hardeep Ranu: I think that there's some kind of secret [00:22:00] formula that somebody somewhere needs to come up with.  Lilith, I'm going to just take off the, from your, the name of your initiative, like you need, we need a magic wand.

But for that side of things,  one of the things that I was interested to hear about is a For you, who and what aspects of the best leaders that you have met and What are there, what are the things that you've taken away that you could use in your everyday work and life?

Asia Korecka: I actually have three examples.

I've been to, I mean, JCSW is giving us many opportunities to listen to fantastic leaders. I mean, many of us are leaders and so just talking to them, so it's always so inspiring. But I always find it also like these, these inspiring talks are wonderful and you get really pumped up about it. And then you go home or you go to work and you're like, okay, well now,  I'm, I'm excited, but where do I start?

And so actually there were a few things [00:23:00] that,  I, I'm a more of a practical person and someone told me once, get it cleaner so that you don't need to do that cleaning that takes a bunch of your time. As a working mom, which sometimes you don't have, and that changed my life, because I'm like, okay, that I don't need to think about anymore.

Another thing was, if you are stressed, and,  stuff is not happening, don't, try not to put that on others. Just because are not working out in your head, you know, other people are doing great. And so that's something that I'm really working on that the day has 24 hours only. And so we do have to pack everything in, but that's a lesson that I've learned recently.

And I, and that makes me a better leader. Always trying to put myself back when,  you know, when I'm like so compressed with my own thoughts. That's a hard one though, because you know, when you're in that mode, then you're just in that mode and you're like, ah, I just need to get stuff done and don't get in my [00:24:00] way.

And like people come to you with problems. And of course you like, you want to help, but you need to be in a good space for that. And the third one is the sandwich, I think, technique, someone told me, you know, when you want to talk as a, because I have a managerial leadership role, people come to me and there's issues, I need to go address those issues, personal issues as well, between staff, you know, say something good, then Say good, not great stuff and then finish with the good stuff again.

Since I started moving that technique and using that technique, I really see that people respond so much better as well to, to criticism and constructive criticism. And also, you know, they, they try to work with you. Then they're like, okay, I think I see where you're coming from. I think I can do this. Yeah.

Those are like three very practical things that, you know, from the leadership,  teams. I've, I've, I've. Hope I'm trying to manage to implement.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay, great. Lilit. What about you?

Lilit Garibyan: Yeah, I think,  for me, the first thing in being a good [00:25:00] leader is that you have to constantly learn, you know, that learning doesn't stop.

Once you come a leader, it actually increases because you have new responsibilities, new roles. So that pursuit of knowledge and constantly trying to learn and be better evolves as you grow. I think it's critical.  number two, I feel like for leadership, you really have to be present, you know, especially nowadays with COVID and people working remotely, you know, it's really easy to just say, Oh, well, I'm gonna just do things from home or far away.

I think just physically being present and always like meeting with the people who work for you and just showing and leading by example is really important. And number three, I think, you know, For to be a good leader. I think ultimately you kind of have to just commit and execute. It's not all about talking and sort of showing the way like you really [00:26:00] have to kind of execute the mission that you're going.

So just kind of having that management plan of milestones and meeting sort of deadlines and really trying to get things done is also important. So for me, those were the three that I feel like I've tried to practice more and more, especially during COVID.

Hardeep Ranu: What would be one new professional skill you would like to learn or work on?

And what about one new personal skill that you would like to work on? Sure.

Lilit Garibyan: So I think one thing that, for example, I want to learn a bit more is about sort of the business side of commercializing your technology and product because I teach innovation, so I get questions about that from doctors and researchers, because that's an area that we're not taught, right?

Like the financial side, the regulatory side, the IP, like sort of things outside [00:27:00] of our expertise, which is preclinical and human studies and things like that. So I've been really fortunate to tap into the resources that Harvard has. I mean, I joined the Harvard Biotech Club. I joined the G. S. A. S. Business club, and they offered some really great courses and seminars.

I did a mini NBA course, which was taught by Harvard Business School professors that was offered through one of those clubs. I took some  seminars on commercializing your work. So, you know, it's not like going to business school, but I think for somebody who has another career, who's busy with kids and work that they're already doing, this is a great way to sort of learn what's on the other side, because I think as clinicians and researchers, we need to understand, like, what does the product have to have to succeed in industry and the market side, Having it [00:28:00] solve a small problem might not be enough, you know, for you to find, let's say, investors who are willing to put millions of dollars to take on that journey with you.

So understanding that aspect will really help guide your work that you're doing on the research side. So that's one thing that I'm trying to focus on learning.

Hardeep Ranu: Do you have any personal skills?

Lilit Garibyan: So I read this book.  how will you measure your life? It was written by Clayton Christensen and some other author.

And it really made me think about how am I spending my time, you know, like, because we all say, Oh, our family's important. Time with our kids is important, but then like he says in that book, but then when you really sit down and you log in, really like write down how much actual meaningful time you spend with your family or the people you say are important to you, you realize it's not that much.

And then he says, but you know, but when you like you [00:29:00] have to match what your priorities are with what you're actually doing. So that really made me sort of stop and step back and decide, like, finding ways of really spending time with my kids. I have an 8 year old son and an 11 year old son, so I decided that I'm going to be more involved,  with what they're doing.

So I became interested in becoming a coach, so I started coaching his soccer team. And this week, actually, I started now coaching the basketball team. So, like, personally, I'm trying to, you know, become a better parent and be more involved with my kids and that's my goal to kind of find ways where we both benefit.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, but you're also like, exercising some of those leadership skills as well, being the coach, right, as well.

Lilit Garibyan: No, it's, it's harder than you think, like, you think, oh, like, what, you just tell, like, these kids to just run around and follow what you're saying. And then you [00:30:00] realize, wait a minute, like, half the group is not listening, the other half is, like, engaged in some other activity, and it's like, It's such a good way to exercise your leadership skills and,  you know, they're definitely being tested with this group of 11 year old boys with high energy.

Asia Korecka: Funny, my husband was a coach to three year olds last year, including my daughter, and that was the same issue. So it seems it doesn't really improve with age. It's like,

Hardeep Ranu: Talk about herding cats, but I mean, like, Lilit, I bet you've got 11 year olds?

Lilit Garibyan: Oh my god, I Same with everything prepared. You know, soccer I had never played, so I just like kind of Was winging it, but basketball I played.

So like I really made this plan and everything, like going to go through everything with them. After five minutes I saw like they're basically checked out, like they're gone. I was like, okay, that's it. I need to stop and we need to do some drills. So you have to be able to change your plan, you know, [00:31:00] as you go because.

They don't have a attention span more than five minutes, and,  no, it's been really fun and interesting, so we'll see where it goes.

Hardeep Ranu: Asia, what about you? What's a professional skill you would like to work on and a personal skill as well?

Asia Korecka: One professional skill or something that I want to get involved with a little bit more is actually the,  clinical side of my research,  so actually going into kind of clinical trials.

I You know, seeing how that is and, and,  what, what is the next step of the work that I do in the lab? I'm a little bit involved with that. That's something I just want to follow to personally learn. I did pre med and decided not to go to medicine,  and do research, but that, that always interests me still.

So, and I think I have opportunities to do that now. So that's kind of something I'm interested in to, to follow and develop my,  career a little bit towards. A skill that I really want to learn. And I think let's mention it to time management, something I've actually been putting on my, you know, [00:32:00] yearly,  meetings,  career developments all the time, it's just, it still feels like I'm still backing and still behind with that.

And,  and that I think is both for professional development, professional and personal and kind of tying, going into more personal. If I get better at my time management, I really want to go back and do yoga again and take the time for it and be better at it because I very much enjoy and it also grounds me,  something that I know that I'm actually better at, you know, being a manager, being a parent.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, I, I love yoga. I do yoga like at least two to three times a week. Time management is, is, is definitely something where, where it always feels like it's something that you can get. I often think like back in the day where, where people like my mother, my mother's a physician. So, you know, was she actually even thinking about time management [00:33:00] when she was working and her family or whatever?

You know, it's like, was that actually an issue then or is it? Now, because of so many more competing demand,

Asia Korecka: I'm sure she was, I'm

Lilit Garibyan: sure she was. 

Asia Korecka: and, and I think she was probably doing a really good job since you are actually wondering whether or not, you know, she was just being so relaxed and awesome.

So she's, she was doing great. Okay,

Hardeep Ranu: so I'll, I'll, I'll give this podcast for her to listen to. What about you?

Lilit Garibyan: I think, you know, it's, it's really hard for women because Naturally, all the child care responsibilities fall on us, and I'm sure it was much more when your mom was going to medical school and doing.

Now, there's a lot more shift. We're trying to share it, you know, with our partners, husbands, and kind of also there's acceptance of being able to hire nannies and help if you could [00:34:00] afford that, you know, that has been a game changer for me. I mean, I have a full time nanny. My husband is also a physician.

He works a lot. He's not around that much, so I have to take the kids to all the doctor's appointments. all the teacher meetings, all the activities, but I have now a nanny that could help with parts of that. I mean, obviously she can't go to the doctor's appointment and all those things, but at least some of the nearby activities or picking them up and bringing them home and waiting until I get home.

That is a huge help. I wouldn't have been able to. To do it if I didn't have that help that I mean, it's very, very clear and I'm very fortunate also to be able to afford that because not many people could afford that, you know, so that's something that I think we all need to address, you know, especially for female postdocs who do want to have families who do want to continue their careers.

It's just hard. And [00:35:00] that's one of the reasons why most of them are leaving academia and going to Industry, time management is always an issue, especially when you're trying to do multiple different careers. You know, you want to see, be a doctor, you want to be a physician and scientist, and you want to be a mother.

You know, you have to be able to find time to put all those into your day.

Hardeep Ranu: I'm not always someone who, who looks at the male female thing in black and white terms, but there are times when I go,  do Men view the time management aspect of things the same way.

Asia Korecka: Yeah, I wonder,  if I may, because I have these discussions with my husband all the time.

He's also, he has his own biotech company, super busy. We have two little kids.  we were fortunate,  to also have some help at home. But you know, what I see, so he's also very busy.  and both, we, we share,  [00:36:00] responsibilities at home equally. And I, the difference I think is between him and me is that he doesn't stress so much about it.

As. I, I get like, I'm not only stressing because I'm not only,  you know, managing the time, but I'm also stressing about managing the time. And whereas I think he is more like, okay, this is what's happening now. This is what's happening. He's compartmentalizing more. And I think that's also something that we women do.

We, we keep this mental load on us,  where we are thinking about thousands of things at the same time, planning ahead and planning ahead. And. So I don't know if it's a,  gender thing of, you know, putting the time to different spots, but,  I feel like maybe men the way how, how, and, and we know that their, their thinking process is different.

 and are very focused on,  attend tasks more than women are. [00:37:00] We were. You know, splitting our attention more, but perhaps that's actually helpful in this case to be, to be a little bit more relaxed about it. But that's, you know, I, this is end of one, let's say study, me and my husband, but I, I do, I do also see that with some of my colleagues.

That's just a little like, okay, this is what I'm doing now. And I have colleagues who are physicians and the PhDs in the lab, actually more than half of our lab is like that. So they're so and their families. Yeah. I don't know. They seem to be a little bit less effective,

Lilit Garibyan: but I agree with you. I mean, my, my husband is the same thing.

Like, you know, he, he's very supportive. You know, he, he, when he's home, he's always involved, but his career kind of comes first. You know, it's like he just kind of, he says that like it's his job to earn for the family and to, you know, have a career. I think like also growing up men always kind of. hear that, right?

Like, like they're the [00:38:00] primary, although things have changed a lot. I mean, now every family is through income. So it's like not every family, but most families.  but you know, they're still have that mindset that they need to be the, their primary job as the family person is to bring income, have a career.

And like, provide for the family. And he also is very laid back, like you said, kind of about the kids. It's like, oh, they'll figure it out. Don't worry about it. But how are they going to figure out if nobody guides them or takes them to their appointment or, you know, does the task that needs to be done? So I don't know, maybe as females, we're just more in tune to trying to Be there for the kids and trying to make sure, like, everything's done,  for them.

 I just, you know, I feel like, I just can't say they could figure it out.  but maybe we need to practice [00:39:00] that a bit more and try to be a little more hands off. I don't know. For men, I think it's easier to manage their time.

Hardeep Ranu: I think you need to,  get to yoga. Do you guys have anything else because we will.

Getting up to time and do you guys have anything else that you would want to say say to JCSW members or anybody who would be listening to this You know any final thoughts that you may have

Asia Korecka: just that it's a pleasure every time seeing everyone It's just such a pleasure and and it's been a great learning experience for me. So I'm very grateful

Lilit Garibyan: I would just say that engage engage and Network, you know, that's like the power of this great university, right? Like we have so many amazing people here. You're only going to meet them and get to know them by just being engaged and um being present and also doing your part to create opportunities [00:40:00] for people to meet each other.

Hardeep Ranu: Right and and and I just want to say that networking isn't going into a room and talking to as many people as you can. Networking For me, and this was something a JCSW member said to me, they said to me, Oh, you're a networker. And I was like, don't be so silly. I'm not a networker. And then she was like, no, Yes, you are, because you just came up to me and said, hey, I heard you talking about whatever, can we meet?

And I was like, oh, I didn't realize that was networking. So, so one of the things is networking is really about meeting. If you go to something, And you talk to one person, then that's networking. Because the next time you go to something else, you know, hopefully that person will be there, and then now you've known somebody else.

And then it just kind of builds up slowly from there. It's just sort of showing up and talking to one person. Is networking. That's what I would say about that. But  thank you guys. Thank you so much for doing this [00:41:00] for volunteering

Lilit Garibyan: Thank you for putting this together. I think this is a great way for people get to know each other

Asia Korecka: And it's a it's actually a networking opportunity for us too because now i've learned a lot about you And and you and it was awesome.

I really enjoyed that.

The M&M Co-chairs

My chat with current JCSW co-chairs, Associate Director, Development Research Melody Forbes (staff) and assistant professor at Mass General Hospital, Maria Mody (faculty). You'll hear more about M&M and what the JCSW means to them and also more about women in the workplace.

Transcript of Episode

00;00;10;18 - 00;00;22;08

Hardeep Ranu

I am here today with Maria Mody and Melody Forbes, who are the current co-chairs of the GSW. And Melody, do you want to introduce yourself?

00;00;22;10 - 00;00;45;22

Melody Forbes

Sure, I am staff co-chair along with my I have the privilege of co-chairing with Maria Mody, which has been a great partner so far in leading this great institution, GSW. And I'm also an associate director of Medical Harvard Med.

00;00;45;23 - 00;01;18;18

Maria Mody

So I am. Thanks for this opportunity. Like Melody, I think it's great fun to work with her. As this conversation evolves, you'll see how much fun it is to be immersed in this big picture. The joke will come up later on. So my name is Maria Mody and I am a faculty member in the Department of Radiology at Mass General Hospital and Harvard Medical School and I'm a faculty co-chair of the GSW.

00;01;18;21 - 00;01;25;22

Maria Mody

And I'm really looking forward to this year, which is has a lot of special activities planned.

00;01;25;26 - 00;01;49;12

Hardeep Ranu

Okay, great. Thank you. So first question, how did you get involved with the JCSWand what do you think you've got out of it in your time as being members? And now and then you were vice co-chairs and co-chairs. What do you think has has has been the best parts of being a member.

00;01;49;15 - 00;02;19;22

Melody Forbes

Congrats I keep on getting promoted in this organization. That's so great. Well, I can go first. So, first of all, I was looking for opportunities to get involved with the community. My job, my regular job, the very back end when they wanted to step out and contribute to me. It's just it's always a platform where you can actually, you know, practice skills that perhaps you're not getting the opportunity to practice at work.

00;02;19;29 - 00;02;49;27

Melody Forbes

You're meeting different people and working with faculty for the first time, which is not part of my regular job. I'm not expanding my network. I have the opportunity to practice. Leading may not work on an individual contributor. So here I'm doing faculty and staff and a group and most of most of the people you don't know. So you get the opportunity to learn how to manage your team, people from different diverse backgrounds.

00;02;49;27 - 00;03;14;00

Melody Forbes

So that's been I'm finding that great learning opportunity. It's been a great opportunity to work on projects or a team. At the time when I started out, I was staff co-chair for the Community Engagement Team and you were responsible for driving the new logo development forward. People who don't know the symbol, then you going symbolizes diversity as a people and as a group.

00;03;14;07 - 00;03;16;00

Melody Forbes

So and members voted for that.

00;03;16;07 - 00;03;18;13

Hardeep Ranu

And it's a fantastic logo.

00;03;18;16 - 00;03;41;23

Melody Forbes

This logo. So yeah you get to work in different projects with different people in different departments and you know, practice leading and to see test drive it to see if it's for you or do you want to lead, is that individual contributor or do you want to lead people from me? And from that I definitely want to lead people.

00;03;41;24 - 00;04;07;18

Melody Forbes

I've learned a lot about some of the things I need to work on. I'm going forward. I'm currently, you know, trying to source a coach, help me with some of those things. So it's been a great learning opportunity. It's definitely a platform that invites people of different backgrounds to come and, you know, the goal is advancement women in medicine, but you also get a lot out of it for yourself in terms of what you put in.

00;04;07;20 - 00;04;33;14

Hardeep Ranu

One of the things that I have found is it's an outlet for me for things that I normally wouldn't be able to do in my my position. So given this, like the podcast or organizing an event or talking to speakers and networking has been some of the benefits that I've really seen and that's for me. But I'm interested to hear more about your thoughts on the leadership.

Hardeep Ranu

But first of all, Maria, do you can you talk about your experience with the JCSW

Maria Mody

Yeah, So I got involved with the JCSW a few years ago and I think what attracted me was the name of the organization, which is Joint Committee on the Status of Women. And interestingly, I come from a family of six girls, so I have a lot of experience with working with women, shall we say. And being the youngest of six, I felt it was great training grounds for, you know, understanding what we can contribute to it.

Maria Mody

And also as women in an in a very decentralized system. And what I mean by that is I'm faculty at Harvard Medical School, but I my appointment is through an affiliate, which is Mass General Hospital. And I thought that I don't really quite understand where the bridge is between these organizations. And I felt the only way I could contribute and advance the cause of faculty.

Maria Mody

Selfishly, because I'm faculty, I thought I would need to get involved with an organization that does exactly that. And specifically for women. So I actually entered through the Subcommittee of Professional Equity, and for so few years I was you know, we've been trying to get our voices heard on various initiatives. And over the years we've organized a wonderful panel.

Maria Mody

Two years ago on Mind the Mind The Gap, as we called it, and this is related to the Massachusetts Equal Pay Act, NEPA. Secondly, I felt that I really don't know how the medical school works, and this was like baptism by fire. You know, it was literally great to be paired with a staff co-chair. And I can honestly say it's been a wonderful learning experience because we each have this tendency of looking through a very narrow set of lens, the lens of our own individual organization, and then you start to realize it's much more complex than that.

Maria Mody

So I love this whole interaction, the opportunities to learn, the opportunities to lead, and more importantly, the opportunity to truly bring the medical school and its affiliates closer together in decision making that affects staff and faculty.

Melody Forbes

Yeah, I just wanted to comment on that and say that the teams are really truly cross-functional teams across various institutions. I mean, of course the dental school, the medical school and the affiliate. So it's a great opportunity to connect with people, their different skill sets and learn a lot. Yeah, and I like what you said about the events planning.

During that during these role. So I adopted a new skill set, among other things. So I'm grateful for that.

Hardeep Ranu

Yeah. One of the things that I found as well was, you know, you have to introduce as a speaker or thank a speaker. So for me it was wasn't something I had done before. It was at a time when I was taking a, an improv class. So I used some of the skills from that in order to do like a thank you or some or something like that where I would like listen to what the speaker was saying and then try and weave that into the the short thank you that I was going to give.

Hardeep Ranu

And that's something that day to day I would never get the opportunity to to do.

Melody Forbes

Yeah. It's also I mean, you're working, right? You're starting from ideation and then working your way up to the execution of a project. So I'm most of what I do in my day job is writing reports. So this was really different and interesting. So it's been a lot of fun that way to take ideas and put them into action and add value at the same time.

Maria Mody

Yeah, and I have to say something really interesting here when I'm listening to all of us speak, is the is that based on my work, which is, you know, understanding communications and how people interact with each other, both in typical populations and disabled population, we have in us a natural social gene. We have born to interact, we want to be social.

Maria Mody

And I think that this the JCSW, truly gives us an opportunity through leadership and through interactions across multiple platforms to hone that skill, but more importantly, draw other people into it who may not be as comfortable with speaking up or speaking out and feeling safe about doing that. That's really, really critical because with leadership comes power, but opportunity and responsibility and they all are very interactive as part of our goal to lead through the JCSW.

Hardeep Ranu

Melody, I mean, you said it sort of working on your leadership skills. What makes you want to think that that's something that you want to work on?

00;09;57;11 - 00;10;25;21

Melody Forbes

Well, my long term goal actually is to be a manager and leader of a department someday. You know, I'm taking a lot of leadership development courses. I've been part of the Administrative Fellowship program for those that know what that is. So leadership development program for diverse staff, a lot of training to see a center for workplace development. I want to be careful of my acronyms because not everybody might know them now, and I see that CW D and feeling empowered by that.

Melody Forbes

But in terms of deciding on a career trajectory, trajectory, I would like to take I think, you know, leadership is appealing. I'm mobilizing people and resources for the greater good. You know, it's not just leadership or just a title. It's I think that if you're leading, you should try to have a purpose to what you do. I mean, many people are called to lead to do different things, like you commit to either a department or you're heading like institution,

And maybe, you know, change leadership is needed. You need to turn something around. I think practice is important. And again, going back to the experience that JCSW  offers, it's gives you the opportunity to practice leading. So when you get those actual opportunities, you're not like frightened or scared of it. Yeah, yeah, I like empowering people, also giving material and people to do their best.

00;11;16;21 - 00;11;32;12

Hardeep Ranu

Okay, Maria, what about you? And although I am tempted when when I am speaking to faculty as well, to go into your research and delve into that. So I'm really trying to, to, to not do that.

00;11;32;18 - 00;11;57;02

Maria Mody

Yeah, no, that's fine. Before I jump into my research, I just want to also add a comment that I still agree with Melody on, among other things, is the whole aspect of empowering people, empowering women. And I think a key word that came out from this most recent event that we organized with Dr. Cordova was the word confidence.

00;11;57;04 - 00;12;23;13

Maria Mody

And she said inspiring confidence and being confident in yourself. It's not easy in a system when you're in a system that's one of the leading organizations or institutes in the world to get your voice heard or not to be afraid to speak up because leadership requires you to speak up. And it's not always easy material that you have to deliver or say. But on the other hand, there is the importance of just knowing that with leadership comes responsibility, but also building that confidence, which is what the study was all about in some way, I think.

00;12;37;24 - 00;12;44;11

Hardeep Ranu

And that was Dr. Frances Córdova She was the former director of NSF, right?

00;12;44;13 - 00;13;10;00

Maria Mody

Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that, because she she when she was a chancellor in one of the universities in California, a vice chancellor, I think she just discovered that. Oh, what does the school like they asking me to come up with ideas, she thought, and she said, OC doesn't have a medical school, let's go for it. I mean, that is a huge, huge undertaking.And for her to kind of lead that initiative, it probably wasn't easy. But, you know, hats off to her because I think a lot of people left very inspired after that session with her. She was so grounded and down to earth, which I really enjoyed. Okay. Come back to your real question about my research.

00;13;31;12 - 00;13;42;20

Hardeep Ranu

One thing that I found was that she was incredibly positive. Just yeah, and just her confidence and just going saying, okay, how how do I. I think this person is interesting. Let me just go and talk to them.

00;13;42;22 - 00;14;10;26

Melody Forbes

Yeah. Confidence also not to take away from Maria, but I would say confidence is the best asset anyone can have in life and in your career to work about it. Like self-confidence is actually your responsibility because it starts with the self. My other takeaway that I'm glad to reinforce, which is my philosophy in life, is, you know, look at your position as a position of power.  Like someone asked you a question about being a woman and how that sort of impacting or maybe moving forward or people not being. And she said she is also always seeing yourself being a woman as a strength primarily, and that someone had asked for a diversity question. And she answered, I'm glad she answered the way she did. She said, you know, your diversity is a strength.

And too often we are interpreting, you know, things the way how other people see us. If other people don't see it as a strength, I mean, well, that's their problem. You know, you have to see yourself and what you have, but you're bringing to the table, even if you're the only one, the table as a source of strength or a way to add value.

But you're the one that have to shift your perspective. And thinking about that, no one can shift it for you.

Maria Mody

Mentally, don't you think? One of the other things we learn in the process of being coaches is trying to find the best in people There is. There will always be, as you said, naysayers, right? There will be always someone who, just by nature of being a leader, that you're going to encounter resistance. Right. So you you you learn to handle those situations.

And in doing so, you gain more confidence in yourself because the act of leading is a combination of listening and speaking up. And you don't allow yourself to be walked over or trampled over. But you also begin to realize when at least I know that to myself, when I have to learn to listen better, because they're trying to sometimes people are trying to be diplomatic and trying to say something and they won't come out directly and say it.

And on the other hand, I find myself doing that too. And someone says, Just say it. And I said, It's hard to say things that on people, you know, that are not easy to. And as women, I think we have a greater difficulty speaking up about these issues. So so yeah, I feel that Dr. Cordova did a really good job of putting a positive spin to even

And that's actually inspired me quite a bit personally to say, All right, I'm going to say it at as it is and, you know, just choose my words carefully.

Melody Forbes

That's all you Yeah, I mean, I'm also a direct speaker as well, so trying to choose the word carefully. I mean, the way to frame it in a way where the person might receive it. But also I've learned when introducing, like I said, I'm a idea person that I'm trying to get people on board with my idea. It's not a one shot thing.

That's one of the things I've learned here, takes people a lot of time to, you know, for your idea to resonate you're probably bringing and then you idea think might shake something else up I don't I don't know I'm just making an assumption but give people some time to process your idea and you know as an individual contributor, that's something that I learned, you know, in this space is to give people time to sort of warm up to your idea and to understand where you're going with it that you may have to reiterate the idea several times or, you know, maybe in a different way or maybe get someone to help sponsor you to move

00;17;54;20 - 00;18;01;09

Melody Forbes

it forward. Definitely learning a lot. Thank you. I really appreciate that feedback. Appreciate it.

00;18;01;12 - 00;18;27;29

Hardeep Ranu

Maria, you're going to talk about your your work because I yeah, I'm interested to hear about it and how it relates to the kind of work that we do. You know, I was listening to Alan, one of our Alan Alda's podcasts yesterday, and about connection and how important that is amongst humans and how to foster connection. What are the ways in which we can improve?

00;18;28;01 - 00;18;56;05

Maria Mody

Well, that's a that's a great question. I'm not sure I have a checklist, but I like to say this whole conversation, the few the last few minutes listening to you, how deep and melody about words and selecting words is a page out of my expertise in terms of communications. And I think so to answer your question, my research is is focused on cognitive neuroscience.

00;18;56;08 - 00;19;27;23

Maria Mody

So I basically look at the brain in relationship to the human ability to communicate, and communication can be oral or written or sign language, you know, so it's across different populations and different modes of communication. So if there's a breakdown in speech or language or reading or, you know, gesturing to communicate, to communicate, you want you try to understand what's gone on this in the brain.

00;19;27;29 - 00;20;05;08

Maria Mody

And I my focus is primarily developmental disabilities. So I look at autism or dyslexia or ADHD or Fragile X syndrome. I'm trying to understand what's wrong, and I think the field tends to start out always by looking at the atypical population. And for example, let's say someone has a stroke and they lost their ability to speak. And in the good old days, that's how research was motivated by looking at someone who lost an ability to look at one part of the brain is impaired and therefore make the 1 to 1 correspondence.

00;20;05;08 - 00;20;31;19

Maria Mody

So this part of the brain disability not to do something and therefore the relationship and the reality is two things. One, it's not a 1 to 1 correspondence. It's clearly now a buzz word and a truly important word is connectivity in the brain. So we have multiple connections. They are like bridges that connect different parts of the brain.

00;20;31;22 - 00;21;07;23

Maria Mody

They are white might attract and they allow us to actually relate different sensory modalities with higher level cognition, to be able to be responsible in a choice of words in what comes out of our mouths, in planning and in execution. But I think a code word that's really come to the forefront because of my focus on autism over the last several years is the social gene that we are truly born to communicate when driven to communicate.

00;21;07;23 - 00;21;35;25

Maria Mody

When you look at an infant in the crib very soon after they are born, they they do things like make eye contact with you, They track stuff. They're like sponges. They just grab everything. They don't say much in the early days, but parents have to be very careful what they say around their kids, because next thing you know, it's coming out of the mouths of the kids because that's what they've heard.

00;21;35;28 - 00;22;08;21

Maria Mody

And and it's not all just pure receptive mapping. They're actually making meaning. They're trying to extract meaning from the words. So a joke that's often I share with I'm not sure it'll be included in this podcast, but I'm the youngest of six, right? And it's six girls. And I used to often hear friends of the family say to my parents, the joke is, Oh, are you trying to have a boy?

00;22;08;23 - 00;22;37;09

Maria Mody

You know, because look, it's very typical. I would say yes. And so then the joke would be that, Oh, Maria, you're the youngest. And it was so far and I would hear the words so far. So when I would go out with my parents and they would say, Oh, you're the youngest, I would turn around and say, so far as these adults didn't know what to do with me because they didn't know if I was using it meaningfully.

00;22;37;12 - 00;23;06;07

Maria Mody

I was just being a little parrot and repeating it that it's funny, but communication and meaning. So that's what what I focus on is meaningful communication. And so when when in autism, for example, they are struggling to actually make contact with other individuals. They don't make this, you know, eye contact. They are look like they're in their own world.

00;23;06;10 - 00;23;52;16

Maria Mody

And because there's so much heterogeneity in the population from low cognition to high cognition, and by that I mean intellectual abilities, We make a huge assumption in society today. We are we all of us, the three of us we live in, when most people live in a in a verbal society, Right. So we're used to communicating verbally and people who don't who are minimally verbal, for example, which is what I'm focusing on these days, is you are trying to second guess what's going on in their brain when they cannot find the words or their matric speech apparatus doesn't let the words come out.

00;23;52;18 - 00;24;27;26

Maria Mody

So we design novel experiments to get at what's going on in the brain from intentionality to articulation. And that's what's really key. So we use both functional MRI. I use functional MRI or magneto encephalopathy, EEG, electroencephalography as well as diffusion tensor imaging. And the bottom line, how deep and melody, it's it's really all about trying to understand when someone is unable to communicate their needs.

00;24;27;28 - 00;25;25;14

Maria Mody

We have a responsibility to them to try and get as accurate a representation of what their intention is and their meaning. And as in the medical profession, we don't even realize what a big responsibility it is on us when they come to see you as a patient and they kind of cannot tell you what's bothering them, we take communication for granted and so we we try to understand the the system, the network in the brain that's impacted by the disorder and importantly, how social skills and things like the JCS W are important because they actually massage those skills, help us practice those skills and help us hone those skills.

00;25;25;17 - 00;25;41;29

Maria Mody

And they're all part of the confidence building that being clearer about what you intend to say and then communicate that to the rest of the world, or in this case, to our organization.

00;25;42;05 - 00;26;08;10

Hardeep Ranu

One of the things that I have found in the GSW and at large in in the other things that I do is that, you know, we we talk about diversity in terms of skin color. Let's say that's the one that comes to mind. But it isn't really just that. It's, you know, it's different abilities to understand things and different ways in which you get around how you move.

00;26;08;10 - 00;26;32;26

Hardeep Ranu

You know, it could be that you can't walk. So it's one of those things and one of the things that from the GSW is being interacting with people who think differently and see the world differently. And, and then and then it's like about how do I how do I change my communication? What words do I need to use in order to get them to understand.

00;26;32;29 - 00;26;34;26

Maria Mody

What we're doing? You can't.

00;26;35;03 - 00;26;37;01

Hardeep Ranu

Order for me to understand.

00;26;37;04 - 00;26;38;12

Maria Mody

How do I get them to.

00;26;38;12 - 00;26;39;06

Hardeep Ranu

Explain something.

00;26;39;07 - 00;26;40;01

Maria Mody

To me.

00;26;40;03 - 00;26;42;05

Hardeep Ranu

In a way in which I can understand as well?

00;26;42;05 - 00;27;20;01

Maria Mody

At one of the subcommittee meetings, I forget which one it was, or maybe at a larger GSW. We talked about how in different cultures speaking up is not considered polite. And in it, when we live in a country like the US where speaking up is important and with the freedom of the press and everything else, it's sometimes takes a special skill set to as a leader to step back and understand the person you're speaking with, because they may come from a different background, different culture, and in my case, different disability.

00;27;20;02 - 00;27;43;14

Maria Mody

So another word that's often used is neurodiversity. These days for this population, they are different. That doesn't necessarily mean they are disabled or that something is wrong with them. And so it comes back to what I meant to say and I forgot to say earlier, is that we start out our research in neuroscience in the past or so focused on populations who had the disability.

00;27;43;14 - 00;28;17;01

Maria Mody

But now when you look at the what we call normal population and we look at the bell curve, the distribution of those features, it's very, very it's very much not like what we would expect. Normal today has expanded representation. It's footprint. And the more we understand how different normal can be and yet it's considered normal, we start becoming a much more tolerant society and much more of a listening and better communicator in the whole process.

00;28;17;04 - 00;28;40;10

Maria Mody

So that I think this notion of understanding skin color or different citizens styles of leadership comes from learning from each other.

00;28;40;12 - 00;29;07;08

Melody Forbes

Yeah, I was just going to say I appreciate your diversity question and both Maria and I have diverse backgrounds, so happy to be also leading in our just diverse leaders. But I do agree with you that many people have a very sort of siloed view of what diversity is. It means different things to different people. Based on your experiences, based on your culture, you know, where you grew up, how other people have treated you.

00;29;07;11 - 00;29;29;04

Melody Forbes

But yeah, I think a lot of things that have been left out of the conversation, like religious diversity, things like that and people with disabilities, we definitely focus on more mostly, you know, racial diversity, so to speak, as opposed to also looking at, you know, different areas of diversity that we need to sort of put to the forefront.

00;29;29;04 - 00;29;48;28

Melody Forbes

You know, you know, who is at the table if you're doing a new construction or, you know, who needs to be at the table to have a conversation about that or you're doing something within your team, like is maybe somebody, somebody on your team to be in the room and, you know, maybe they're not getting the opportunity to speak up.

00;29;48;28 - 00;30;09;08

Melody Forbes

And, you know, you say something to your boss. Well, this person has some good things to say. You know, listening to people with diverse perspectives and having that at the table is also a part of diversity, or even just so far, just to say, being inclusive of people, you know, I mean, those things are, you know, important to me.

00;30;09;15 - 00;30;11;23

Melody Forbes

So I appreciate your asking the question.

00;30;11;26 - 00;30;24;12

Hardeep Ranu

Okay. So I've been asking others is this question was to questions what is one professional skill and one personal skill that you would like to work on or are working on?

00;30;24;14 - 00;30;51;00

Melody Forbes

I think for me, basically, I mean, like I said on these platforms and the other community platforms are good practice learning to deal with, you know, like how to deal with more difficult conversations. Yeah. And learning how to maybe defuze, you know, when things get yellow heated in the room, learning how to sort of redirect those, you know, that's part of communication.

00;30;51;00 - 00;31;07;24

Melody Forbes

I mean, I always admire people who can do that. And when things are sort of sort of getting out of hand in a meeting, they can just like bring things back to the central point, Oh, why are we here? What do we really need to focus on? And I think that's a great skill to have, and I love to develop that both personally and professionally.

00;31;07;24 - 00;31;28;19

Melody Forbes

I think as leaders or even just general colleagues, that's like a great skill to know because oftentimes sometimes people go out and and, you know, we all been we all have been in chaotic meetings or meetings that go nowhere. I really I like to be organized and focused, try to focus on solving problems and making things better for people.

00;31;28;19 - 00;31;36;26

Melody Forbes

So I think those are things I'm looking into getting a coach. So there are a few things I want to work on, but I know that that's definitely one of them.

00;31;36;28 - 00;31;41;08

Hardeep Ranu

Do you have a personal skill, something else, fun or not fun?

00;31;41;14 - 00;31;43;20

Melody Forbes

I can repeat the personal school question again.

00;31;43;26 - 00;31;57;15

Hardeep Ranu

Which is why is there another personal skill that you working on? And it doesn't have to be like could be like a hobby that you want to pursue or you know, that you would like to do, but you haven't got around to it anything? Oh, nothing.

00;31;57;17 - 00;32;05;13

Melody Forbes

Can I really think of anything right now? I think the one I mentioned before kind of doubles as both maybe personal and professional.

00;32;05;14 - 00;32;09;24

Maria Mody

I think on the personal level, I have what I like to work on every where.

00;32;09;24 - 00;32;11;28

Hardeep Ranu

I imagine one professional or.

00;32;11;29 - 00;32;43;00

Maria Mody

Graduate school that you're not, you know, would like to work on. I leave it at that. I think when you are a leader and also aspire to be leaders in other domains, you have to walk a very careful line. And sometimes that's when you but, you know, trying to do that, you will encounter resistance and you you listen, but you don't let it get to you or become a very personal issue because then your relationships and your interactions go amiss.

00;32;43;00 - 00;33;09;22

Maria Mody

As far as professional, what I'd be working on is probably trying to understand the other side. And what I mean by that is having been a leader in different capacities in the past and as I continue to do what I do now, I've built more confidence. I've be honest, I've always believed in myself. And because of that, it gives me a lot of conviction of where I'm coming from.

00;33;09;28 - 00;33;55;12

Maria Mody

So I feel pretty good about that. But I think I also begin to respect that being a leader is not easy. So now when I interact with other leaders, I listen and I understand sometimes why they come across or I have to be the way they are, because they have to make complicated choices and it's all related to, I think the two skills that I mentioned that I'm working on are very related, not taking things personally and trying to understand and give the benefit of that even to senior leadership why they do what they do, because it's a complicated world that we live in and it's always trying to navigate that because each person has

00;33;55;12 - 00;34;40;06

Maria Mody

someone above them and above them puts them in a system that's so layered that you start to wonder, how do we better understand, even as the GSW in our initiatives and our efforts to connect the dots, because we want accountability, but we also need to layer that with understanding. And I think you get further by actually listening and listening between the lines, even from senior leaders, much more senior to you, because the decisions are not always easy, you know?

00;34;40;06 - 00;34;59;20

Melody Forbes

Yeah, that's true. And also, you know, they're working with the information they have at the time. I mean, sometimes after making decisions and some other information comes to light and then in terms of understanding where they're coming from, they can probably not always share sensitive information at a certain time. And for every good decision, there's always a drawback.

00;34;59;20 - 00;35;28;12

Melody Forbes

I learned that once even taking a measurement, for instance, where the teacher said, it doesn't matter, it's the best decision ever. It will always most likely have some type of drawback. It's just, you know, can you mitigate the risk? So they do make decisions that may seem great, but also think, you know, there's never a perfect decision which some people just don't understand or decision might not, you know, be inclusive almost of everyone, which might be hard it might impact somebody negatively.

00;35;28;14 - 00;35;52;04

Melody Forbes

But yeah, I do I do have a softer side for people. I don't know. I was never judgmental of people leaning on me, complex people coming to you for your ideas, your thoughts. Then you have to rationalize why you're doing doing something, supporting with research, or getting information from the experts to support moving in different direction there recently, I'm not going to say specifically what it is.

00;35;52;05 - 00;36;14;29

Melody Forbes

I recently had to reach out to two experts to do this, to get some information, to develop some policies for a program and know I was so glad they did because they had information that I didn't know that was really important to integrate into the program moving forward. And it was very helpful. I'm doing that. So, you know, just just gathering information you need from the experts in the field.

00;36;14;29 - 00;36;23;09

Melody Forbes

You know, sometimes that takes time. Right now, people are anxiously waiting for your decision when you're trying to gather information to figure out what course of action to take.

00;36;23;13 - 00;36;36;22

Hardeep Ranu

Yeah, I think that that is one of the things that gets downplayed is the ability to ask for help. I think so not that many people do it and so they struggle on their own.

00;36;36;25 - 00;36;38;15

Melody Forbes

I find it empowering, actually.

00;36;38;21 - 00;36;49;15

Hardeep Ranu

So me too. I, I find it it's like part of that networking kind of thing. So we have 3 minutes left. Do you guys have anything else you'd like to say?

00;36;49;15 - 00;37;13;17

Melody Forbes

And from beginning, I'd like to just say that I really appreciate the opportunity that Jessie W has presented, an opportunity to quote unquote call practice leading. It's been a very supportive environment. I've never well, I've never really been it's not an anything. People are really supportive and it's something need to go in a different direction. Telling you the reasons why.

00;37;13;19 - 00;37;38;06

Melody Forbes

I'll definitely learn a lot. I would love to encourage people. I know everyone is busy, but if you want to test drive, opportunity is to lead. You know, consider these volunteer opportunities. Actually, even if you're just doing it for one year to help, it's nice to attend a seminar. I listened to quite a few, but when you're like practicing in the moment and you're doing it, it's totally different.

00;37;38;06 - 00;37;56;14

Melody Forbes

You know, getting an action is different than going to a seminar and listening. It's all great information, but you do have to practice to develop, taking IT information and shaping your perspective. It's all important, but you do have to put it into action and this is one piece that you can do that. So I'm really appreciating developing in that way.

00;37;56;17 - 00;38;05;13

Melody Forbes

And you know, my call to action would be for other people to look at these types of platforms as part of their career development.

00;38;05;18 - 00;38;24;21

Hardeep Ranu

Well, two things. What you said, it's all about the experiential learning. You can't you can't reproduce that. And the other thing was I kind take issue with the word practice leading. I think you actually are leading because you are the co-chair and you do lead. So there's no practicing in there.

00;38;24;23 - 00;38;25;07

Melody Forbes

Okay.

00;38;25;11 - 00;38;28;13

Maria Mody

You say pearls of wisdom. Okay.

00;38;28;18 - 00;38;30;15

Melody Forbes

That's part of leading the lesson.

00;38;30;15 - 00;38;31;29

Maria Mody

That continues to worry.

00;38;32;01 - 00;38;33;15

Hardeep Ranu

About me as well. But you have.

00;38;33;15 - 00;38;34;12

Maria Mody

To do it. Well, I've.

00;38;34;12 - 00;38;35;14

Hardeep Ranu

Heard me from.

00;38;35;17 - 00;39;18;22

Maria Mody

Established women in senior leadership positions around the country, world, whatever, who still say this statement that the bar is still held higher for women. I just don't get that anything. Why should it be? You know, we constitute 15% of the world's population. Why shouldn't we have that much? Why shouldn't we be empowered through leadership to have that voice at the table that counts as much instead of sitting around and joking about and looking at cartoons which show, you know, a man saying something and then a woman and the man, male leader in the group say so.

00;39;18;23 - 00;39;44;25

Maria Mody

So and, you know, a woman said something and saying, okay, let the man repeat it and take the credit for it or something like that. The point is simple is simply this that the boss should not be hire for women and men for men in society, regardless of whether it's on the personal front or on the professional front, that equality equity begins at home in your home responsibilities.

00;39;44;25 - 00;39;59;09

Maria Mody

And then you take that model and work with it at work.

00;39;59;12 - 00;40;13;10

Hardeep Ranu

Okay, that's great. Thank you, both of you, for agreeing to do this podcast. I really appreciate that. The time that you've taken today to to talk to me and, you know, the things that we discussed were really, really great.

00;40;13;12 - 00;40;30;00

Melody Forbes

And thank you. We really appreciate you for offering to do this. And this was a stretch for me, but it's been great. And I will, you know, I hope one of these and I agree to this so that someone can take something away from this and, you know, feel good and empowered with what anything that we have said here today.

00;40;30;02 - 00;40;30;20

Melody Forbes

Thank you.

Professional Equity Co-Chairs

Join me as I speak with the Professional Equity subcommittee co-chairs, assistant professor at Boston Children's Hospital, Eman Ansari and assistant professor at Veterans Affairs Boston Healthcare System, Elisabetta del Re and find out about them and also the work that the professional equity subcommittee is doing to advance pay equality across the affiliates. We talk about pay equity in Saudi Arabia and also how in Italy women were regarded as children until 1978.

Transcript:

Hardeep Ranu: I am joined today by the professional equity subcommittee co chairs, Eman Ansari and Elisabetta Del Rey. So Eman, would you like to introduce yourself?

Eman Ansari: With pleasure. So my name is Eman Ansari, I'm a pediatric pulmonologist intensive care unit physician. And I practice in the emergency department and the sedation unit at Boston Children's Hospital.

I'm also an assistant professor at Harvard Medical School. What else would you like to know? How do you like background and.

Hardeep Ranu: Sure. Your background, you know, how you ended up at the JCSW, how you ended up being the co chair.

Eman Ansari: Perfect. So,  I was born and raised in Saudi Arabia. I came to the U.S. at the age of 24, following medical school to do postgraduate training.

I trained  here in Boston. I did my pediatrics and then combined fellowship, pulmonary and critical care,  also,  in Boston at Boston Children's Hospital. And,  my residency was at Tufts. And then after that, I became a faculty in critical care for five years. During that time, I did basic research on pneumonia and one child, then the second, then the third, then the fourth.

And I decided to take a step back a little bit, do what I do best. Which is my clinical work, but take a step back from,  research,  raise the children,  continue to be full time physician, and I decided to do emergency medicine. I felt there's more flexibility in terms of work life integration and shift work.

And during that time, I came back to,  Boston children. So I went to Cincinnati initially and came back to children's and I learned about the GCSW. So,  as a faculty, so I joined the GCSW, I would say about 11 years ago, I was in the [00:02:00] work life as subcommittee for a period of time, I was a panelist on multiple,  occasions for that committee.

And a couple of years ago, I was looking at the different committees and I thought that,  professional equity,  subcommittee seems of great interest to me because of promotion, salary, social justice, multiple issues. I feel like it's. spoke to me a lot. So I joined it.  I enjoyed it a great deal last year.

And by the end of the year, the former,  co chair said, how about you apply to become a co chair? And that's how it became a co chair.

Hardeep Ranu: Great. I think that's how it goes. Somebody just invites you to, but it's sort of more of a, you know, you will do this. And Elizabeth, would you like to introduce yourself as well?

Elisabetta del Re: Yeah, that's wonderful. My name is Elisabetta del Re, and I am an assistant professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. My [00:03:00] research is focused on serious mental diseases, so schizophrenia, in general psychosis, and Other mental diseases also because we know that many of these mental diseases share a genetic background.

I try to study all of them and I originally am from Italy. I came here to study. I was pre med and then I studied biochemistry, master and PhD. I also studied mental health. I am a master in mental health and I combine all these things. So I look at mental health as something. that has a neurobiological substrate and a neurodevelopmental trajectory.

And so I try to combine the genetics of mental diseases, neuroimaging, cognition, all aspects that together might help understand schizophrenia or. And we try to go beyond the DSM categorization, mostly because there is [00:04:00] a common genetic background. Not 100%, but there is a lot of overlap. Trying to go beyond the symptomatology, but go to the neurobiological substrates.

I am in love with JCSW. It's a wonderful,  group of women. They are all intelligent, beautiful. We all together bring on a fight to have women reach equality and equity with men. I am part of the P subcommittee as a co chair. I was asked to join this year as a co chair. I was in the PE committee before.

I'm also part of community outreach. We have several goals for the PE committee. We are trying to basically discuss and bring some advancement.  on teams like maternity leaves for women and for men, promotion for women, trying to understand whether there is equality there, trying to reach out to leadership.

So to have their important contribution in this,  discussions. I'm very happy to be. P with Eman Ansari. We really clicked from the start. This is just my,  presentation for now. And I'm happy to be with you too. Yeah, we, we really work well together. We do. We do.

Hardeep Ranu: So Eman, you've been a JCSW member for a long time now, 11 years.

Yeah. Have you seen any changes,  in the JCSW membership or, you know, does anything sort stand out to you about. You know, oh, you know, we used to do this 11 years ago and then now we do this.

Eman Ansari: So I have to say that at the beginning I wasn't as,  my attendance record wasn't as high just because I was handling a lot,  between clinical work and a full house and,  younger kids.

But what struck me about the JCSW is that, as Elizabeth was saying, it's a group of. Very like minded, enthusiastic women who are trying to move issues pertaining to working mothers and working women forward. And there is this like shared sense of purpose. So I, every time I went there, like there is this energy that infused, we can do things.

And I felt that over the course of the past 11 years, like attendance, it then flowed, but In, in total, I would say it's been increasing and,  JCSW has a very well regarded name in the Harvard community and,  whenever a new woman faculty joins,  any of the affiliated hospitals, my hospital included, we tend to recommend like, Oh, you should be part of JCSW as well.

The pandemic definitely dealt a hit to us in terms of getting together and having these side talks and introductions and the organic networking that is not necessarily,  in a. Particular meeting and more intentional, but thankfully right now we're going back to it in terms of [00:07:00] change. One of the observations I've had is that, and this is not only JCSW, this is in general, people work organically and very hard at bringing issues to the surface and bringing data and numbers and trying to make a case.

But every time I've seen a strong, effective, lasting change, there was a buy in from the leadership. The leadership buy in is so crucial. I think Elisabetta and I agree that to be effective, we need to make our case in the most compelling way, not necessarily the most Aggressive or scientific or numerical way, the most compelling way that fits with the leadership style in listening to us in order for things to change.

Hardeep Ranu: I can't remember the name, but there's a documentary about female directors in Hollywood and What they did was they got data to show, you know, how many female directors there were andhow many were the successful ones, how many more millions of dollars they were bringing in in terms of this, the successful, but fewer directors, female directors.

And so as you were talking about that, I wonder, you know, because when you got the data, it's difficult to refute the data. If you have,  all that information, and I'm wondering whether you've considered this, or I'm sure you have considered it and what kind of data you're looking to gather, if you are.

Eman Ansari: So Elisabetta, would you like to take that?

Elisabetta del Re: Okay. So,  we are trying to actually, we have a very active member of subcommittee and Heidi, and she is trying to basically promote a survey, a survey among women professionals, starting with the JCSW, trying to aggressively understand questions of transparency.

concerned with salary. So these are important issues because we have a law in Massachusetts that is a few years old where there is an obligation for transparency on salaries. So we know that women earn in general, on average, less than men. in the same position. And so this is a very important,  project that we are trying to carry on.

Those data will be important possibly to write a white paper and publish a paper. That's our goal and build on that. Now, as Eman was saying, and I was also saying, the interaction with leadership is very important. We are very fortunate to have a very wonderful leadership. We are looking for collaboration toward, I would say, for example, regarding this issue of transparency,  having collaboration, full collaboration on this issue.

Eman Ansari: One of the issues that I have to say we learned from the [00:10:00] pandemic is that data is important, but data by itself is not enough. So trying to convince people about the importance of vaccine and the impact of vaccines to keep us alive. So we are here today, just talking with numbers will not change hearts and minds.

Fully so partly numbers, partly context, partly putting all of this in a narrative and looking at each leader and their style of leading and try to meet them where they are and look at their goals. So we're, we're looking to develop strategies so that the numbers, the narrative, everything put together would hopefully get us the results we want.

Hardeep Ranu: Are you also going to look at productivity? You know, papers published something, something like that as well to maybe correlate that with salary or something. I don't, I don't know. I'm just.

Elisabetta del Re: We haven't, we haven't pursued that. It's a very good idea. There is an amazing paper in PNAS that looked. at 60 years of productivity, and there is the issue of what has been defined the lower productivity of women in academia.

That paper was able to demonstrate that if you look at year, each year of an academic career, there is no lower productivity for women. The problem is when you look at the total length of the academic career, then you see less productivity, meaning that women often time have Years where they take care of the children in addition to having a career.

So by taking that into account, there is no lower productivity of women, but RDP, that's such a good suggestion. We might follow up on that. Yeah. Thank you.

Eman Ansari: There are things that are even before we look at, so that would help us in terms of criteria for promotion, et cetera. We're thinking about issues like how long a faculty has been in an institution.

How long did it take between two ranks? For women versus men, and then who initiates the discussion. So irrespective of productivity, if we, and I don't know the data yet, this is among the things we want to look at. If a faculty always initiates promotion when she's a woman versus the chair is the one who initiates the promotion when it's a man.

There is a concern there that perhaps we need to look at reasons why the conversation is not initiated in the same way. So there are multiple steps along the way from hiring to each step of the promotion that are worth dissecting.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. Can you talk more about that? Because it's something that I'm totally familiar with.

You know, I have some idea on the promotions process, you know, the, you have to be to go from assistant to associate and an associate to full professor. You have to show that you're sort of. a national or internationally renowned in your field of research. But you know, I, I think that the [00:13:00] details of, you know, who initiates it and that would be interesting if you could, you know, talk more about that side of things.

Elisabetta del Re: Well, so basically what we are trying to understand. And to pursue is the length of time, actually, there are two, two issues we are trying to pursue the length of time for women versus men in academia,  between one stage of the academic career to the next. And then the other aspect is when women are at the point in academia that they might be promoted.

Is the chair of the department taking the initiative to start this conversation or are always women, you know, feel the need to start the conversation? So is there a divide there in terms of men and women? So those are two aspects that we are trying to understand more.

Eman Ansari: Like assuming that there was a discrepancy and we don't know, we need to look at the data.

Assuming there is a discrepancy, then the question is, is it because of certain assumptions that they don't want to pressure the woman to, you know, to focus on her promotion and her tenure and career, and she can take enough time to take care of kids? Like, is it out of thoughtfulness? Is it out of misassumptions?

Is it out of what exactly and how we can fix it? Of course.

Hardeep Ranu: So are you saying that it should come from the chair or, you know, for a man, it would come from the chair because the chair would know, you know,

Elisabetta del Re: We are still trying to collect data, so we don't know, but we are curious to understand this process.

 it is possible that, for example, for young mothers with children out of kindness, there is some reserve in pushing for a new. stage of the career that involves more work. [00:15:00] And so we are trying to understand how this process works. And of course, it's a process that,  has unconscious type of cultural,  perspectives.

And also,  maybe not so unconscious. So, so it will be fun to have some data.

Eman Ansari: But in some ways, like I see in like a utopian perfect world,  a certain position would have a set salary at a certain institution. It doesn't matter what the gender of the person,  at the institution is to get that salary.

And,  whether be it annual review will always include a question. Is the faculty ready for promotion? So that's a question that is visited on annual basis, or there is a program that gets triggered when a faculty reaches that threshold, but trying to unify the process,  and to have more clarity and transparency in the [00:16:00] process, I think would give everyone a sense of just.

This and fairness in the process right now, it's very variable. Like anecdotally speaking, people would say, Oh, I'm the one who brought it up to my chair. Oh, actually my chair is the one who, who said it.  and then people would say, well, I, it turned out that I met criteria five years ago and someone else would say, I haven't met criteria perfectly, but then the chair helps me meet the criteria in order to submit my dossier.

So these variabilities, if we can,  figure out a way to, to clarify them. And again, the, the goal is to learn number one, and then perhaps have a scorecard of sort to faming rather than shaming, basically faming the ones who do it really so well.  and there is tremendous equity in their divisions or departments so that others can learn how did they do it?

Hardeep Ranu: I think I'm beginning to understand.  yeah, that's, that's really interesting.

Eman Ansari: I have to tell you, like, because we're, we're mentioning our backgrounds and anecdotes. And two things about my background came into play here. One of them is I grew up in a culture and in a country that we thought maybe my grandchildren will be able to drive cars and be in charge of themselves because nothing has changed in 24 years.

I was in Saudi Arabia and nothing changed in 24 other years I was out of Saudi Arabia. You know, we didn't expect change to happen. And lo and behold,  a new king comes to the throne and he,  decides to have his son modernize the country. And in a day and night,  new rules were instated by the crown prince.

And the entire country followed, and what was yesterday haram for women to do and completely forbidden by dictum of a religion, the following day became, Oh, actually the religion wanted women to drive. They used to drive camels 1400 years ago, which gave me the sense that If the leadership decided on something, if we get the buy in from the leadership, change would happen much faster than when it comes from the grassroots.

And the second thing is, despite a lot of,  perception about women's rights,  in Saudi Arabia, which I, I have to say,  there is a lot of truth to, to the perception when it comes to equal pay. There is equal pay. So it is the position that has a particular price. And once you're in that position, women or men, that's the price of the position.

You don't negotiate up or down, it's a set fixed price. So the justice in terms of equal pay is, is a given because it's the position. And I think it would be great if there is a way to define positions that way. So we're not like 50 years into women's movement and. Women still feel that they're being underpaid.

 and data would support that many, especially working mothers are underpaid in, in all [00:19:00] professions and in all specialties.

Elisabetta del Re: Agree.  Eman. Thank you for, for that contribution. Very interesting. It's different than Italy, though. Well, I can tell you that in the 70s, a law was changed in Italy in, I think in 1978, I might be wrong, the exact date.

Women were considered as children till then, legally. Their status was that of a woman. a child. So that's not a long time ago. I mean, it's yesterday. With all the consequences, you know, being legally considered as a child brings with it. So it's a long journey toward equality and equal representation for women.

So it's interesting what you're saying about Saudi Arabia, but you know, if you look around, it has been a long journey here in Europe. No, definitely.

Eman Ansari: I'm, I'm glad women have made tremendous strides in the past hundred years,  compared to 70,000 years of humanity, but still we're, we're far from being equitable on equitable basis.

Plus we came into the workplace. Recently, very, very recently. So there,  there are issues of equity,  at the home and outside in the society, and there are professional equity, which is what our committee is, is dealing with. We've been in the, in a man made workplace for men with wives at home for a relatively short period of time.

And we're working at adjusting the place to accommodate women. and mothers and different types of families that may not have a husband and a wife, maybe a single parent, maybe same gender parents. So we are evolving.  we need to evolve faster. Yeah.

Elisabetta del Re: I, I cannot send into that. I, as a choice, I decided to be home for quite a few years with the, with the kids.

And that was. personal choice. I wanted to enjoy fully the amazing relationship,  with my kids, but I have to say this society does not make it easy for women to have a profession and at the same time having their role as mothers and, you know, providers. So that's another thing we should strive for.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, I think childcare in the U. S. is pretty terrible in terms of allowing women to go back to work because it's. It's expensive in terms of if you have daycare, you have to go and pick them up and if they're ill and all that kind of thing, or you have a nanny who isn't cheap either, you know, is, is pretty expensive.

Eman Ansari: And there is unpredictability in the process itself. Like you think it's set, you think you have the nanny, you think you have everything set and all of a sudden your child spikes a fever. Or the nanny gets sick or the daycare closes and it just can throw you off completely.

Hardeep Ranu: I have been asking these two questions to people, one of which is what professional skill would you like to work on or are you working on?

And one, What personal skill have you been, you know, would you like to work on? And it can be anything. There's no right or wrong answers here. I

Eman Ansari: would say professional skill.  I wish in medical school they taught us,  two things, financial literacy. We, we don't, we don't know how to manage money. We think we do.

But I think part of being a leader of a team of a division of anything, you need to have adequate financial literacy and also leadership. They teach that in the business school.  we learn it on the go in medicine and in science. And I think if we have,  if we have more direction,  that would be great, but.

I think I'm going to learn about leadership until the day I die, but that's a skill I'm trying to hone personal level. I think,  I don't want to say negotiations as much as compelling negotiations, like how can you,  debate something with someone, especially with our leadership and. Convinced we don't want to fight them.

We want to convince them. We want to get their buy in to see, to see our side, to be in our shoes. And if I can master that, I think I would be able to achieve on our goals a lot faster.

Hardeep Ranu: I think if you could master that, then. You would probably rule the world. people would be clamoring to know how you have to do it, because I think that's a real, a skill that we could all,  keep working on.

It's, yeah, it's like how do you convince someone that to be in your shoes, you see from your perspective would be a good skill.

Eman Ansari: Yeah. Because you don't want to argue opponent,  ideas. If you lose, you lost. And if you win and the other li  side lost. You lost, you lost that person. Like you want to win your point with the other person winning too, you know?

And how do we do that?

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. I mean, I think it's also like not seeing something as black and white, like winning or losing, you know, it's like,  on the sort of continuum of, you know, where you meet in the middle or it's not really like, Oh, you, you're going to, you know, you're going to win that particular argument and I've lost it.

And now, now what now we can't move forward, you know, but. Elisabetta, what about you?

Elisabetta del Re: Well, I'm thinking that leadership skills also in my case and in the personal realm, but of course anything overlaps, personal, professional connections. I have to say, I have friends and I have collaborations in my research everywhere in the world, Africa, Argentina.

 but I feel the more connections we have, the more life is,  has a purpose and as a meaning. [00:25:00] And so connections and it's wonderful to see people as very different, but at the core, they are all humans. And so, This is,  something that I always,  try to enhance for myself and for others.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, that's why I'm doing this.

Because I like the connections that I make, you know, otherwise I would never have. been speaking to you. You know, I mean, that's the thing about the JCSW. You know, it's about meeting people who you would normally never meet.

Elisabetta del Re: Yeah. I have discovered you, Hardeep, I have to say, and it's wonderful. I feel like we might be friends in the future because I, I was able to talk to you,  because of this.

Also last time we were talking, it's a wonderful feeling. Oh,

Hardeep Ranu: thank you. Thank you. Yeah. In terms of leadership, like, what would you be working on? Which aspect of leadership?

Elisabetta del Re: I guess in my case,  they need to work with many different types of people and make it work, make the group and harmonious all. So for example,  I have students and they have very different personalities.

And sometimes there might be some disagreement, talking about papers, authorship. So the ability of making people understand that it's a teamwork, that we all contribute to a project. There is no project in science that comes from one person. So it's very important to be a good leader in that sense. And if people work together, it might be very hard, especially in academia where, of course, there are so many very smart people, very hardworking, very passionate.

And,  sometimes they forget that without the group, without the,the system, without the support of all the pieces. There is no paper because somebody acquired the data, somebody had an idea, somebody wrote a grant to the NIH, somebody,  was able to get the funding. So this sense of community, it's part of being a good leader, you know, and it's, it's not easy.

It seems easy, but it's not an easy process, I have to say. So issues come up and you have to deal with them, you know.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, leading a team is difficult. Eman, what about you? Are you in terms of leadership?

Eman Ansari: So,  one of the skills that I'm, I'm trying to keep honing is,  what do I have to make decisions on,  as a leader of the team?

And what can I delegate and have a consensus decision on?  so it would be great if we have consensus on everything.  but sometimes you need to make a decision. It's very easy and clear in medicine. Like if the patient is very sick, there's no time for consensus. You take decisions. And if the patient is very.

Stable, the stakes are high and you need really a well thought through plan. You sit together with a group of people and you all think together and come up with a consensus. When it comes to issues, administrative issues and issues of,  promotion and doing a study and putting a survey together, et cetera, you want to bring the team on board.

But ultimately decisions need to be made. And how do you make these decisions, which is, which is not easy. You want to empower all the voices. but you don't want the process to, to linger too long.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. I can imagine that in that medical setting and in the research setting, it's, it's so nuanced in terms of getting this consensus and trying to make sure people are satisfied.

I don't think. you know, you're not going to satisfy everyone. You know, one question I had come up with that I thought was,  was pretty good. [00:29:00] What's the best compliment you've ever had?

Eman Ansari: There is something I've heard this week, almost 10 times, and I don't know if it's a best compliment, but,  people describe me this week.

You're a. And I said, I responded today on the text when someone said it to me last. I told her, I've heard this several times this week, as long as I'm a force for good,

Elisabetta del Re: I'll take it. That's, that's so nice. I would agree, Eman. So you have another person. Thank you. Bye.

Hardeep Ranu: Elizabeth, what about you? What's the best compliment you've ever had?

Elisabetta del Re: I'm thinking, because I have had a few of them, I have to say,  courageous,  generous,  angelic, and,  I guess superior intelligence. I had, I had that a few times from,  DR mentors. that I'm, some that I've, I've passed and that I loved very dearly, unfortunately, because that's what happens in academia.

You have like a father or a mother that is helping you and then, you know,  it's so interesting. It's a little bit of a recap of family ties in research because you find like a family, you know, where you grew up and then, but,  so academia is a wonderful place to be, I have to say.

Hardeep Ranu: So you, you're a A big thumbs up to academia.

Yeah.

Elisabetta del Re: Well, it's challenging, especially because as I was saying, there are a lot of type A personalities and I'm sure a man in medicine too. So, you know, but. Academia becomes a little bit like second home. I mean, you have people where you discuss with people, you know, ideas, and it keeps you alive. I [00:31:00] think it keeps you young.

I mean, I have my neighbor here that is professor of law at Harvard and I always tell her, Christine, you look so young. And it's the fact that she's writing, she's discussing with students and, you know, but I see the same in medicine, especially among what you are doing. It is an everyday challenge because you are in the emergency.

So every day your brain is really working.

Eman Ansari: And I think working with students like in science or in medicine keeps you always on your toes and keeps you always energized and infused with like creative ideas. They're creative juice that they, they keep bringing at you, which is, which is great. It's wonderful.

I've never tried the industry, so I have no,  no frame of reference with industry, but having the student and the teaching,  and the variability in the type of experiences that you do within the same job, like I take care of patients, I teach, I can do research within the same job, rather than the whole job is one thing, makes academia for me, enjoyable.

Elisabetta del Re: Exactly.

Hardeep Ranu: Yes. Yeah. The flexibility, for sure. Yeah. I think, Elisabetta, what you're saying and Eman, what you were saying as well, like creativity, I think is, is, you know, that exchange of ideas of, you know, what do you think about this? Or maybe we could, you know, I was thinking about doing it this way or that way.

I think that's where it's really special in terms of the academic side of things and, and. Also, that some of the time or most of the time people are open to new ideas as well.

Elisabetta del Re: Absolutely. It's true. The catalyst is an example of that. It's all for new ideas and collaborations.

Eman Ansari: The Harvard catalyst.

Hardeep Ranu: Yes.

Yeah. We try. We try to. You

Elisabetta del Re: try, but you are successful. I tell you that. I'm proud of it. I'm proud of it. [00:33:00] Yes, of course.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. Okay. So we're at five o'clock. Did you guys have anything else you want to add to the conversation?

Eman Ansari: You know, all what we would say, join us, join us.  we want more,  brilliant minds as part of our subcommittee to think about this.

together to solve it together.  the solution is there.  we're just working to get to it, but there is a solution. Equity is going to happen. We want it to happen soon. So please join us.

Elisabetta del Re: Yeah. And thank you so much for giving us a voice. So we're very grateful.

Hardeep Ranu: No, thank you guys for, for agreeing to do this.

You know, I decided to do this and, you know, trying to convince, I mean, it's like what you were saying, Iman. It's like, I'm trying to convince people to participate by saying it's not a big deal. Yeah. You know, it has been sort of slow and I've had to really think about how, how I do that because I can [00:34:00] be direct as well and just, you know, have a hard time seeing it from somebody else's point of view.

Because I. I think that, oh, what's a big, what's such a big deal? You're just having a conversation. It's me. You know, we can edit it out. That's there's not a big deal here. But,  I have to stop and think that that how other people would feel about having their, you know, voice out there or if they say the wrong thing.

And, you know, the the trepidation and worry around that. So how long have you been doing it? You know, I've only done, um. like four episodes.

Eman Ansari: So I'll tell you why I asked.  I started a book club,  at children's, which will be a subject of a forum and a panel discussion in April,  at children's. But when I started it, I, I said, it's for the whole hospital.

Anyone could come. It's in the division of emergency medicine and few people would come and would trickle in. And then at one point I invited a local author to an author event and we  sent it through the office of faculty development. More people came. And then I decided to invite every author of a book that we read.

And some of them. Didn't even respond to my emails.  some of them asked for like 30, 000 and some of them decided to show up. And every time an author shows up, it makes it a lot easier for the next author to come. So when I sent recently,  one of the authors is Colin McCann. I sent his publicist,  an email asking if he would like to join us for a book discussion, he said, well.

Which other authors have come to this event? And I said, well, Bonnie Garmus came and so, you know, and I started mentioning the names of the physicians, but they recognize Bonnie Garmus. So he said he's in, and now I have his name and Bonnie's name to use it to try to get, you know, the next. So I think you will build on the successes, but you're a great, great host.

You make. We made us feeleasy and we're just talking with you and you can tell people, you know, Elisabetta those and those spoke with me.  it's very easy and the more people speak to you, the more people will speak with you. It's

Elisabetta del Re: true. You facilitated in a wonderful way.

Hardeep Ranu: Oh, thank you. Eman, can you add me to your?

Eman Ansari: Of course, with pleasure, with pleasure. I would love that.

Hardeep Ranu: What books have you done so far?

Eman Ansari: Done,  we've been,  going for two and a half years now, since the pandemic started. I can tell you from January to December, we did, This Is How It Always Is, and then by Laurie Frankel, then Noise by Daniel Kahneman, The Huntress.

a novel by Kate Quinn, Sapiens, Yuval Harari, A Letter to a Young Female Physician by Suzanne Coven, local from MGH. It ends with us, Colleen Hoover, The Power. So we're not using just one genre. We jump between silly to serious. to, to different things and you don't have to attend every, every month,  club.

Like if the book is something that appeals to you and you want to read it,  you can join, but it's been, it's been interesting. And what is most exciting I have to tell you is,  to hear the different perspectives of people. So years ago, I did something called VTS virtual thinking strategy, and we went to the museum of fine arts and different people would comment on the same painting.

And you would think I've captured all the perspective and I said, and you would hear something completely different that you didn't consider. And it's humbling and exhilarating. And it's so exciting to think that, Oh my God, there's so much intelligence out there that is not all inside my head and within me, and I can reach for it.

The more I speak with people and explore their thoughts and same with the book club, like you get. Perspectives you didn't even consider. And we're reading all the same book, which is fast.

Hardeep Ranu: So that virtual thinking strategy, it's like a thing.

Eman Ansari: Yes, it's a thing. So there is an arts and humanity initiative at Harvard medical school,  led by Lisa Wong.

And one of the ways that you can bring teams together is using different tools. One of them is called VTS. virtual thinking strategy. And actually the team that I was with, I signed up an email and it appealed to me. And when I went there, there was a nurse, there was the chief of neurosurgery from the Brigham.

There were a couple of administrators from the BI. I was there. And I think that was my group, the five people, very, very diverse group. And you forget the titles, you will forget the background and you would just listen to the perspectives that you never considered. And it's just fascinating and it's so enriching.

And it brings people on a level playing field that it doesn't matter my degrees or your degrees or anyone's, you know, this is through my life and through my experience, this is what I saw in that painting, which is fascinating. Yeah, it is.

Hardeep Ranu: I'm going [to look that up.

Eman Ansari: VTS, virtual thinking strategy. Yeah.

Fantastic.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay. Thank you so much again for doing this. Elisabetta, we can be friends. I

Eman Ansari: want to be your friend

Elisabetta del Re: too.

Eman Ansari: I think

Hardeep Ranu: the three of us should

Elisabetta del Re: be friends. Yeah, yeah. It's such a wonderful group of women. Hardeep, I have a question. Will you send us, before you post it, the edited version? Of

Hardeep Ranu: course, of course.

I might use some of this bit of chatting at the end, because I think it's really nice and natural. So, just because it just adds a little bit extra to the The energy of, of the podcast We're warmth.

Eman Ansari: There's warmth.

Elisabetta del Re: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. There is warmth. It is so true, Eman. I agree. Perfect. It's very,  yeah, I didn't like using the word aggressively

I, I used the word aggressively at some point and I didn't like that word, but it's

Eman Ansari: okay. It's fine. Like aggressive I feel is,  like ambitions. It's  a word with some gender bias. If a man uses it, it's a good thing. And if a woman uses it, it counts against her. It's

Elisabetta del Re: so true, Eman. I remember my mom always saying, will your husband always show that you are more stupid?

Don't listen. Because he's going to leave you. Don't

Eman Ansari: listen to her. So I'll add an adjective for you. You're very kind. I know it's an adjective. Oh, that's something I

Elisabetta del Re: always hear. Oh my goodness. They always say, is that true Eman?

Eman Ansari: You are, you are very kind.

Elisabetta del Re: Everybody tells me so. And I don't know. I mean, I hope I am.

It's a good quality, but I don't feel It's ever enough.

Eman Ansari: I don't know. No, you're very kind. I don't know if there is kind enough. Like I think kindness is something that [00:41:00] keeps on giving. I don't think there is enough, but you're very kind. And I'll give Hardeep an adjective. You're very graceful. You're very gracious.

Hardeep Ranu: Which is very wonderful. My mom wishes that I'm more so. I

Eman Ansari: wouldn't have so much grace. You have so much grace and you're such a wonderful host.

Hardeep Ranu: I will definitely take that, that compliment because nobody has ever said that about me.

Elisabetta del Re: I have to add something open. Open. Yeah. Open. You can listen. I, like, I felt that you were hearing me and that's such a good quality.

It's, you know, you can pay enough for that type of quality.

Hardeep Ranu: Thank you. Yeah. I hope to make things comfortable and, you know, good listening.

Eman Ansari: Thank you so much, Hardeep, for having this, like, warm space for us to chat. Hardeep, thank

Elisabetta del Re: you so, so much. You're welcome. It was wonderful.[00:42:00]

Join me in this meaningful conversation with Sharon Dekel, an Assistant Professor at Massachusetts General Hospital, on her pioneering research on PTSD in women who have experienced a traumatic childbirth. You'll also hear about her work as a mentor and the subtle ways in which her two-year compulsory military service in the Israeli Army influences her management style and allows her to use it as an example of the importance of attention to detail to her mentees. 

Transcript:

Hardeep Ranu: [00:00:00] Okay. Hello. Today I am joined with Sharon Deckel, an assistant professor at Mass General Hospital. Sharon, do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself?

Sharon Dekel: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to join this podcast. I am a faculty member of Harvard Medical School, assistant professor promotion in the promotion process to associates and my lab at Mass General Hospital.

In Department of Psychiatry, I study maternal mental health during pregnancy and in the postpartum period, focusing especially on cases of birth trauma and how the birth event might result in developing post mortem stress disorder. I lead clinical. Investigations and translational studies to better characterize and develop state of the art interventions and early assessments to prevent what we call childhood APTEC.[00:01:00]

Hardeep Ranu: Okay, so I recently read a book by Rachel Aviv and it's called Strangers Unto Ourselves. And it's a, it's a book going through different people, profiling some different people in their mental health struggles from that perspective. And one of them was actually,  a young woman who had postpartum depression.

So how prevalent is it?

Sharon Dekel: That's a great question. Prevalency is somehow tricky to define when we talk about maternal mental health disorders or what we call maternal and sickle pathology because we know that mental health has a lot of stigma and people often do not report symptoms in the case of postpartum.

Women who have mental illness fall into hot birth very much likely to women not to to underreport their symptoms. Possibly they're not even assessed for their conditions. Overall, based on research, we know that between close to one out of five women will suffer from either minor or major depression falling to upper.

So [00:02:00] that's 20%. That's a significant portion of women. And we also, there's a lot of evidence to show that a woman who is developing a psychopathology fall into hot birth really increases the risk of. Health problems in the infant, especially developmental delays,  that would also impact the health of the child as the child becomes an adult.

So the idea of early on preventing maternal psychopathology to improve the health outcomes of the mother and her infant.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay. So 20%, and then that's an underreported, you know, could be anywhere up to 30, maybe even 40%, you know.

Sharon Dekel: In some countries, you know, there's some research, for example, in Iran and, and, and you know, regions in Africa, then these rates possibly are even higher.

Hardeep Ranu: Do you have any hypothesis or any idea why it would be higher in those areas?

Sharon Dekel: We talk again a lot about this idea of, of, of stigma, underreporting, symptoms, access to healthcare.  you know, we talk about motherhood and the idea, idea of [00:03:00] the identity of the person and how Being a mom in different cultures might have a certain kind of type of identity.

So there's, there's a lot of reasons, possibly in more low resource,  regions of the world, there is less access and less awareness of mental health conditions. So these conditions are not really screened. People maybe don't even know that they're suffering from depression. So the rates are just very, very high due to, I think, lack of access to treatment.

Hardeep Ranu: And so can you go into your research a bit more like. Some of the findings and,  areas where you would like to go or, you know, or even, you know, some kind of a project that you would like to do, but it's sort of slightly off the beaten track.  cause there must be one of those projects that you have that you're like, Oh, I really love it if I could get the funding or a little bit of funding to do that.

Sharon Dekel: I have so many studies I would like to do above and beyond my, my funding and above and beyond the, the means in terms of the [00:04:00] resources,  of my person on the lab.  currently one of our exciting studies is a imaging study. So, you know, to your question, why are people suffering from mental health? Why are the rates so high?

We are trying to understand the neural mechanism that in this case, it would be for a PTC fall in childbirth to be able to develop. And identify biomarkers or is there is in psychiatry, as I'm sure this audience knows, there is really no,  biomarker that has led its way to the clinic. So our assessments are done based on reporting.

And the more we would know the hardcore biology, which in this case, we're talking about when we talk about mental health, we usually are talking about brain disorders. So we really want to understand the maternal brains. That's a very exciting,  and important. study that is currently being conducted in my lab, one of the studies that is in the pilot phase.

So we have all the IRB approval to conduct the study. We have even our collaborators is to really study maternal mental health, not only among women who reside in the U S but [00:05:00] possibly open the research into kind of more global mental health. And we developed this collaboration with a team in Nigeria to study PTC falling childbirth, especially because we know that rates are what we call,  near miss.

Some women who almost die in the context of giving birth is much higher in Africa, including in Nigeria. And there is sometimes,  unfortunately more frequently than not a lot of what we call,  violence in the course of giving birth by the providing team. So we really feel there's so much need to educate the providers and to collect data to support the possibly.

A heavy toll of underrepresented women who live in these regions of the world and,  pending more support,  funding, that is something that we would ideally move into not only the pilot phase, but usually, but actually expand it,  above and beyond this kind of preliminary phase of data collection.

Hardeep Ranu: Have you got any results so far? Do you have any hints of how [00:06:00] it looks?

Sharon Dekel: We are just collecting data. I, I'm, I'm very eager to look at the data because what I know so far is just from anecdotal cases of my collaborators at this hospital. They shared with me these very. I would say,  you know, really mind blowing stories.

You can't even imagine this is what's happening to women in some places in the world. But these are stories. These are cases of people. So I think there's any way and I think MGH and Harvard Medical School is,  in a great position to empower women, possibly all over the world through improving their health outcomes.

So I'm really excited to see these results.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. Is there anything that you have found so far in your research that, you know, I'd say you would recommend,  because I know that you're a clinical psychologist as well, right? So you must have some ideas, you know, what you would say to women who are pregnant or thinking of getting pregnant, you know, if they're worried about this, [00:07:00] you know, is there a way, I mean, is there a way of like, I don't preventing it or be, I mean, I guess it's just being aware of it.

Sharon Dekel: You know, without saying anything prematurely, I would say there possibly is potential for prevention and actually recently received, as of early February, an NIH funding, NIH award to test a brief psychological intervention given to women who experienced birth trauma and seeing whether this early intervention in the first days following childbirth could actually prevent their PTSD.

So, I would for an audience who are for people who actually might have a birth trauma or feeling very anxious during pregnancy about their forthcoming delivery, I would first suggest speaking with a specialist, speaking with a mental health provider about their anxiety. Self disclosing, you know, in 2017, I began studying birth trauma and maternal PTC.

I am based in the North Science Division and kind of the larger PTC. program. And I am,  to my knowledge, the only female,  investigator. So as a, as an idea of studying [00:08:00] maternal PTSD among my more senior male colleagues was something that was, I think that kind of was somehow not really clear what, why, why I'm focusing on this.

Can birth actually be so traumatic, like going, going to war clearly today, we know there isn't enough evidence to support,  the fact that birth could be very traumatic.  so along this, I see. And, and I continue to see in all my studies that we have women who present with, you know, what we call full blown PTSD, which would mean that a psycho, psychologist, psychiatrist who does an evaluation for these people would definitely say they have PTSD, not because another trauma, but because of birth.

But most people never talked about the traumatic delivery, never received treatment. So this is something I every time find very surprising, the limited awareness and,  the limited. resources, even if the resources exist, knowing what to do when you have the symptoms, who you can reach out to. So definitely I would suggest as soon as possible when you're feeling that things are not really are kind of out [00:09:00] of the ordinary to speak with somebody and to see a health provider and to see a mental health provider, to see if there's any need for,  kind of a pretty regime routine intervention to ideally prevent PTC.

But we're, you know, we're, we're doing the research in order to. develop better tools for early screening, that would be really accurate. So we don't want to screen everybody and tell everybody they have PTC fall intolerance.  and also coming up with more interventions that are really robust and can even prevent PTC, which possibly could possibly with the right timing and the right intervention for some individuals could be preventable.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, because also, you know, it's not as with so many things that, you know, it doesn't just affect. The woman who's giving birth. I mean, there's an infant there. There's other, perhaps other children as well. And partners, you know, other family members who then have to, you know, step in somehow as well. I mean, it's, it's the repercussions are huge.

Sharon Dekel: Yes. Yes. In our study, [00:10:00] we, we are assessing maternal mental health. We also assess what we call kind of mother infant attachments. How are women making these early emotional connections with their babies, which we know this kind of maternal attachment is really important to support optimal child social emotional development.

So we're assessing the mother health, the maternal attachment, and the child development. And we do see that when we talk about maternal PTSD, it's often comorbid or co occurs with impairment in parenting the child and develop this mother infant attachment, because the way we think about PTSD is a condition that is evoked by reminders of trauma.

In the case of maternal PTSD, the baby could become a traumatic reminder and therefore the mother might eventually have a very difficult time taking care of her baby. And, you know, our research supports this.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, like, I mean, in animals, right? If there's something that kind of disrupts the flow, they reject the, the young.

Sharon Dekel: Exactly, exactly, exactly. But there's, you know, there's just a lot of silence around, you know, maternal PTSD doesn't [00:11:00] mean in the psychiatry that there is a DSM, which is a statistical matter for all the mental health disorders. In many ways, maternal PTSD doesn't exist. There is no PTSD with a postpartum onset.

So again, we're hoping that through this research,  we will increase awareness, education and knowledge

Hardeep Ranu: and for the women who have had PTSD, and then they've been  treated. How do those outcomes look? Have you talked about, you know, do you have

Sharon Dekel: not enough, not enough studies?  but,  most likely if you are receiving the appropriate treatment, you're likely to recover.

And then if you're considering getting pregnant again, this might be, you know, you're kind of possibly beginning your pregnancy from a very good place.  I think, I think, you know, that this,  vicious cycle of maternal psychopathology leading the woman to reject her baby. You see the maternal PTC mother is one of their common complaints is they don't want to get pregnant again.

They fear childbirth, including people who this would be against a [00:12:00] religious religion. And early treatment, possibly effective treatment possibly could buffer this very vicious cycle. So I would most likely women who are receiving treatment have better outcomes for themselves and for their babies.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm, I am aware that this is something that isn't spoken about, you know, like, I guess the women really don't talk about their childbirth. You know, there are experiences. I mean, once in a while, I mean, somebody will say, Oh, it was, it was a long labor and then I had a cesarean and I'm aware that once that happens, you have an emergency cesarean, there's a whole lot of trauma that's gone on for the woman.

In terms of trying to give birth and and it's not like you're going to go in for a scheduled cesarean which you know in I understand that surgery it's there's a lot of recovery from that but you've got all of this other um physical trauma. Exactly. Or the [00:13:00] surgical trauma as well.

Sharon Dekel: Exactly. Exactly. And you know, we, we see that,  you know, we did a lot of, we do very in depth interviews and we interviewed hundreds of women in the lab at Mass General.

And again, the common theme is I never spoke about my traumatic delivery for people who had, who gave birth 10 years ago and have, and are suffering from PDs, PTZ, PTZ, by the way, is very comorbid co occurs with depression. So often complication of maternal PTZ is actually also suffering from depressive symptoms.

And this comorbidities could really have debilitating effects on the woman's health. So this idea of not talking about your birth trauma, not disclosing to your partner, to a provider, to your circle of friends, is unfortunately very common, and I think in part because people feel, from what I see in my research, women say they feel shamed.

They feel guilty that maybe what happened to them is because of their doing that they somehow failed. And they, therefore they have a pan caesarean, an emergency, and their body failed them. They don't want [00:14:00] to traumatize their friends who are about to have a baby. And, and just like, it's a very, everything is kept very secretive.

And that is definitely not helpful for mental health because the mental health One, I would say the early stages of recovery is actually disclosing what is happening to you with people you think could support you.

Hardeep Ranu: You know, it's that thing about talking about it, anything, you know, that's difficult that you think is, is hard, but once you share it with one person, you know, it hopefully would get easier if, yeah, it, you know, now thinking about it, it's, there's so few people who, who do say.

You know, you don't, you don't say, Oh, well, how was your, you know, I don't say to my next door neighbor who had a baby, you know, like, so how was it, how was it, you know, was it traumatic? You know, I don't really expect her to say anything, you know.

Sharon Dekel: Yes. But I feel like things are really changing in the right direction when it comes to maternal mental health.

You know, I joined Mass General Harvard [00:15:00] Medical School,  in 2013. So almost a decade ago. And I believe that assessment for depression at Mass General during pregnancy and the postpartum is something that kind of was,  emerging around that time, but before like 10 years ago, and there was really no recommendations of screening for mental health conditions during pregnancy as a routine care.

And now it's definitely done. I, it's a higher recommendation in the U S and I believe it's implemented in definitely the majority of the hospitals in the U S. So we are really heading in the right direction and, you know, NIH who,  is supporting our research. There's a lot of recognition that mental health matters.

Mental health improves mother outcomes, infant health outcomes, and it's a lot of need for more research. And everybody knows this is the case these days. So it's a lot of support, which was very different in the past. Yeah.

Hardeep Ranu: And, um. So your lab, you, you have a pretty big lab, correct?

Sharon Dekel: Currently, we have,  18 members,  majority are full time, some part time.

We have, [00:16:00]  people who are more senior like postdocs. We have several CRCs. We have,  students who come from Harvard, from Harvard University during their, their, we could have doctoral students and master level students and other students who come from universities,  in the Boston area who do their own kind of independent research.

We have a lot of existing data. It's recollected in the past and people, students are taking their time to develop their own studies under my supervision. Most of our lab actually currently,  exclusively it's, it's all women and we try to as much as we can to be inclusive. And  I think people in my lab, I would say represents individuals who come from different cultures, speak different languages,  different minority groups.

And this is something really that is very important for our lab to promote a lot of diversity.

Hardeep Ranu: So one thing I'm interested in is how you have transitioned to. You know, I know that at the instructor level, you know, it's generally you're on your own doing your own research. [00:17:00] And then once you start to become more senior assistant professor, then now you're managing you're, you're no longer at the sort of quote unquote bench.

And so now you're managing the lab. How did you find that transition?

Sharon Dekel: You know, I,  it just kind of somehow happened.  and. I think there's a, there's a lot to learn to, to manage,  people and especially young people. And,  you know, we, we've been pretty good in, in, I find that the people who work in the lab, it's like a fit, it's like anything in life, it has to be kind of a good chemistry.

And I feel that we were very fortunate that those who kind of worked in, I have been working in our lab in the past and currently. They have a lot of passion to the work we're doing. So I, I, I feel that, you know, people who let's say our first year,  undergrads in university, they come to the lab that they're, they're interested in learning more about maternal mental health.

And then I feel like they kind of pick up the vibe in the lab. And that has been making, I think this idea of, [00:18:00] of mentoring a lot of people much easier because people are, I feel like we're all in this like one big mission of really improving the research. On maternal mental health to improve,  the care of mothers.

And so there's a lot, there's a lot of, there's some kind of a small sense of family, which I feel like has been helping me managing people who I kind of, our kind of, I'm supervising them because they're very much kind of part of this one bigger group, but there are, you know, there's a lot of responsibility again, especially when there's young people and how do you ensure that they are really,  kind of working in the pace.

If they want, they are achieving their goals in order, most people who come to my lab and are in the undergrad level, they want to head to medical school or to grad school. So we try to do our best to really support their,  kind of professional growth by having them, getting them exposed to different studies.

Having them join manuscripts, even as first authors presenting their work in conferences and, and the same for postdocs. So I think [00:19:00] overall has been quite,  you know, very,  fulfilling, meaningful experience.  I think that it's. It's helpful when they're, and this is something that has been developed mass general, but there is,  several opportunities to get some more knowledge about this mentee mentor relationship and how can you like embrace on it and optimize it for both sides.

And I think knowing,  the challenges and, and things that could. makes this relationship grow as much as possible is very important. So any, I think I would support  any faculty member, anybody who's in this relationship of managing people to really find ways to,  be involved in, in all kinds of more of educational activities to learn about what it requires to be a mentor.

Hardeep Ranu: So what would you say would be the sort of difficult side of things?

Sharon Dekel: Difficult side of things. Wow. This is,  I think for me is,  I often consider,  the people that I work, I don't really see [00:20:00] them based on their academic title.  so I have high expectations from them. And,  possibly some people maybe don't have the passion that I have, or, you know, they're coming because they just want a six month to be in the lab and then they want to go back to the university.

So ideally understanding the expectations that, you know, what are the goals of,  Menti, the postdoc vis a vis your goals and what is your expectations. I think it's something that is, is good to discuss,  ahead of time and possibly also midway to really kind of make sure that people are. Getting at the end of the year at the end of two years at the end of the five years that they are where they want to be and where you want them to be.

Based on, you know, who they are and, and their own desires eventually. So you have to, I think it's like, you know, parenting, you want to push towards success, but at some point you have to give people their own autonomy to grow and, and, you know, develop it as they would like.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. It's sort of like that,  that thing where you can see somebody's potential and you want to push them towards that [00:21:00] potential, but if they aren't ready to be pushed or they, you know, they're resistant to it.

There's a point at which you have to say, okay, I have my part.

Sharon Dekel: Yes. And I think, you know, for, for some people in my lab,  and I get, as I said, most of them are women,  people who define themselves as women.  sometimes there's an issue of self esteem. And again, this is, I, this is just kind of who I am personally, intuitively.

I, I, I try to as much as I can to empower them. And, and sometimes it's. It's difficult, especially for people who, you know, maybe they are the first generation that goes to college. So I feel like my mission as their mentor is not only by making sure that they understand the math, the math with the reading or knowing the, you know, different protocol of the study, but also some kind of, and I guess that's my clinical psychology side.

Making sure that they are validated kind of more as a people in the lab to, you know, as you know, this reminds me when I think like 2014, maybe I received the Claflin award. This is a word through a [00:22:00] MGH Ecore to promote women in science.  usually women in science who have mothers, actually women, people who are taking care of, have young kids.

And,  I remember I went to the ceremony in Harvard medical school with my three girls at the time. My oldest at the time was,  five. I have three girls.  Twins and,  at the time the twins were two and my oldest was five. And there was like this slide that showed the percentages of women faculty by academic degree assistant associated full professor women by gender.

So you can see I remember kind of in my five year old who's very academic. She's like, mommy, who look at this. It was like basically the instructor was almost like 50 50. Assistant I think was. Already, like maybe, I'm not sure, 100%. This is also 2014. I hope things have changed. It was lower. So it was, you know, it wasn't equal, but not, but the gaps were not so big.

I think associate was around like 30 percent of full professor was maybe 20 percent females. And my five year old, her name was Anna. She was kind of making this comment and observation of like, you [00:23:00] know, where are the women, whether, what are they doing? So,  I think again, this idea of as going back to your question,  and the challenges of a mentor, like how can you really empower the next generation?

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, I think that, that is a question, right? Like where are all the women when you start to go,  up the ranks, like what does happen to them or why did they, I don't know, get left behind or something,

Sharon Dekel: but it, but it is challenging. I'm, I'm sure, you know, the audience. And our Harvard Medical School community of women would are aware of the different challenges.

And,  I, as I mentioned, I joined,  MGH in 2013, my older was, my oldest was five and the twins were two. So that was, it was a very busy time in my personal life,  as well as,  working in the lab.

Hardeep Ranu: That's a lot of young, young people to have around, especially twins. So in terms of the JCSW. When did you join and why did you join and also what benefits have you seen or, you know, what kind of things do you like

Sharon Dekel: [00:24:00] about it?

I would say I'm a pretty new member.  I joined in during the pandemic.  you know, I always actually wanted to join. I read about the, you know, this association, it seems to me so powerful and, you know, life has been always so busy and during the pandemic, I, you know, we're receiving these recurrent emails, invitations to join for members.

I said, why, why not join? So I joined,  the community engagement subcommittee. They, you know, the benefits is, is being part of this,  larger, very powerful. community, which,  really includes women who are doing all kinds of exciting work at,  Harvard Medical School from, you know, fact research and non research.

I think that's just very powerful for me to,  be part of this, of this group. And, you know, the, the mission of how can we,  kind of support women in leadership, you know, I, I, I do research, but I'm, I'm, I'm very much involved, interested in getting more involved in educate, educating the next generation about, you know, personal [00:25:00] growth and work life balance.

And this is like, all seems to me very much relevant to the mission of the,  Harvard Medical School Women's Association.

Hardeep Ranu: So you, you mentioned there like the personal development or, you know, professional development of the younger generation, like what kind of things do you see for them or, you know, what kind of programs would you suggest for them?

Sharon Dekel: You know, at Mass General, we have the,  postdoctoral association program. I think this is how much of the formal official name.  I've been a mentor in this program for several years, actually since 2016. It's open to, you know, postdoc,  regardless of her gender. And I think that's a very,  important association that having this,   so kind of, we are serving as mentors, but we're not their academic mentors.

So it's not, I don't necessarily guide them on, on the content of their grant proposal, but it's, you know, more about like, you know, work life balance matters. We talk about, you know, this kind of [00:26:00] more agenda moving forward from a postdoctoral position to instructor positions. There's a lot of support of the overall general career trajectory.

And I think Developing more of these kinds of initiatives,  at Harvard Medical School at the affiliated hospitals, I think it's very important because people often they're just, they don't know a lot of things that are in these very important junctions to make important decisions and just. People who already maybe made these decisions could really provide some input.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. So hearing from others who've been in similar situations would be really helpful. So I know that you had told me that you are from Israel originally and that And of course, I asked you about your,  military service, because I always think those things are so interesting, how somebody has, and I know that yours was mandatory, so you had to do it.

But for people who have had some kind of military background and then are now doing something [00:27:00] completely different, but did those two years have a lasting effect on you? Or, you know, do you bring anything to from that experience to what you do now?

Sharon Dekel: I think it's a great question. I actually have never really contemplated about the impact of the army on my life and on my professional, professional trajectory, I think, in part because For people who live in Israel, everybody,  for them, the vast, vast majority actually goes to the army.

So it's just like you're going to college. So why would you necessarily think how this really shaped your life? I was in the air force. I, the two years were actually very, very interesting. And I think possibly there are many ways it has impacted me as well as the fact that I'm originally from Israel.  I'm sure that has impact impacted is impacting my identity living in the U S.

If there is one effect, I would say it's this idea that you are, you know, you're one person working in this kind of bigger for this bigger purpose. Clearly the purpose of army is all kinds of people. There could be [00:28:00] different purposes. Are there is even an army? Why do we need an army? And that's like, not, not our focus today.

 but this idea that you're working towards a, like an important mission is something kind of, it's kind of very much the opposite of an individual. And this idea that you have a purpose for the purpose of a society.  I hope I'm, I really hope that the research that we are doing has a purpose, not only for myself, mass general, but also for the larger community in this case,  postpartum individuals.

And so I think this idea of. Giving back to the community by being part of like a larger mission is something that maybe has been kind of also influenced by my two influential years when I was, you know, back then 18 going to the army for two years and then being,  I was on a reserve duty for,  several years also.

So when I was like in college,  so that's definitely a significant,  chunk of time. And I think also I. Actually, I have recently, I've been using the [00:29:00] example of the army with a member with my,  the people in my lab and, you know, I tell them that in the army, you know, you have the, you know, you have, you have your army shoes.

There was always,  you had to have, you know, you have to wear uniform,  you know, your shirt has to be tucked in, there is a belt, your shoes have to be shined. I slept in the camp for two years. So, you know, you have to fold your blanket in a certain way. And I remember at some point that I was 18, you know, as the more I became senior towards kind of the end of the two years, like, you know, who really cares how much my shoe is actually polished or not, what does it really matter?

I'm not liking, you know, it's not like they're presenting me on any kind of stage or it doesn't really matter, but I tell my stories, it does matter because this is part of discipline. So, you know, when we are working in the lab, when there is these small things that we need to revise a document, because there's something about the image or, you know, there's.

Something that we in the content of this specific sentence for IRB, which clearly the content of the sentence is very clear, but I think making sure that there is a discipline that are standards like doing very small things that possibly are insignificant, [00:30:00] possibly impacts the entire way of.

orchestrating your, your research. So I think that might be something that I possibly have earned in the army to, you know, make sure that these small things are, are really kept because this is like just good,  habits for how you manage larger and more important tasks. Yeah.

Hardeep Ranu: It's, it's sort of like on the, on the face of it, you know, making sure your shirt is tucked in that, you know, your shoes are trying.

Seem insignificant in the grander scheme of things. But I think what, to your point about being in the military and the larger purpose of it, it is about making sure that these details are kept in check. Because I mean, you know, if we're gonna talk about the military, then you know, it's a life or death situation.

It could be, you know. Yes. So that's, that's interesting parallel to bring to, you know, to say, okay, you know, we're going to make sure these details are correct because every time, because we don't want it to be this one time where it's going to hold up a [00:31:00] project. Yes. So, I know you mentioned you have your three girls.

So when your daughter said to you, she's five years old, and she's saying, what happens to all the women? You know, as you go up to professor, what did you say to her? I

Sharon Dekel: actually, you know, at the time, again, she was very young and I tried as much as I can to just explain to her as is, you know, what I thought this is basically.

Usually women are the primary caregiver.  and just, there is a lot of other demands and, and you find yourself making these decisions and therefore you decide this may be not the best path for you. So it was, it was clear to her and, and my younger,  daughter, Sophie is one of the twins. She recently gave a TED talk and she, she's very,  math oriented.

So she gave a TED talk about,  the fact that there is not a lot of women. them in faculty. So I think it's kind of, you know, clearly part of this idea that it's clear to them. It's not a matter of ability, but it's a matter of a potential opportunities and a matter of, you know, how much you can, you know, you have the support to [00:32:00] make it work.

You know, this is something that also my, my. postdoc fellows ask me, especially I have, you know, had a postdoc fellow who,  she currently is not in my lab. She was a postdoc fellow and had three young kids. And I think it's, it's just, it's a very true, true combination, going to be a mother, the way you want to be a mother, and also focusing on, in this case, you know, your academic career and integrating the two is really, really difficult.

And,  this idea that it's just, You know, you can just do it. It's actually not so simple.  and you know, when she asked me, like if I have any guidance for her, how to do it, I think it's just really hard.  I think we need just to find better ways to support women,  mothers. To be able to, you know, climb up the ladder if, you know, to ensure that this slide that we saw about the prevalence, the rates of female versus male,  full professors at Harvard Medical School eventually would be 50, 50.

And maybe it has since 2014. I don't know the statistics exactly, but most likely not. So I [00:33:00] think it's very tricky. What's the secret to making this work? I don't know. People have their different arrangements. I, I know that in my case,  my partner, my husband put in a lot of help to support us. And that was very, very helpful without his support.

Maybe at some point I would find this very, very challenging to do.

Hardeep Ranu: Would you ever have considered staying home and putting your career on hold?

Sharon Dekel: That's a terrific question. And I would say yes. I had the privilege to take very long maternity leave after the birth of my older child, you know, for a year, I actually, I had my own funding.

So, but I was like between postdoc and moving to the U. S. becoming instructor at Manhattan Medical School. So I was like in between these,  these, this transition and I had my own funding. So I had my salary support and I could kind of work on my own pace through this external grant coming from a private foundation.

So that was like a way to. maintain some academic engagement, but also to be to have very,  light workload. And then,  when the twins were [00:34:00] born, I, I again had some kind of external funding and, and I, my pace was very, very, very slow. And I think that was kind of my decision to, to really take these very extended maternity leaves.

I think it's possible to come back, but like everything in life, I think everything in life has a price.  you lose some, you win some and. And I think there is some, there is something very powerful to,  stay at home. Like, I think a matter of what fits your personality the most, what are your resources,  again, a very, I think, complex decision to make and possibly what is right or wrong varies by person.

Hardeep Ranu: So one question or two questions that I've been asking people is, you know, what's one professional skill and what personal skill are you working on or you would like to work on? I

Sharon Dekel: think,  definitely,  professional skills is time management.  it's just, you know, as you, as you have more people you manage and you are in a given term or we have, you know, at least five studies,  three usually are really active at the level of [00:35:00] recruiting participants.

So we do, we do clinical research. We have like humans, there's a lot of work and we have like, you know, Two more studies that we have a lot of data sets. We are just like revising and developing manuscripts. There's just a lot of, a lot of opportunities, a lot of great research questions to ask. A lot of collaborations from, with other universities, with international investigators.

I'm on the board of the Marseilles Society of Perinatal Mental Health. It's a, it's a large perinatal mental health organization, international. I, I chair the, it's called the Postpartum Trauma group as part of the International Society of Traumatic Stress Studies. There's a lot of engagements at Harvard, at Harvard, at MGH and outside of MGH.

Very, very busy. So how, what would be the best way to manage these,  opportunities, but also maybe sometimes saying, no, this is like too much, I think I haven't really developed a good system for that.  and also knowing how to manage my quality time. I think sometimes I, I know the research never ends.

So I could find myself. Revising a manuscript at [00:36:00] midnight, even after midnight, working on a grant. Again, there's no, there's no nine to five.  and I think sometimes something that is important to, to remember to actually keep it nine to five, which I haven't really found,  the way to do and, and making sure that, that,  More,  vacation time is really,  a true vacation.

I think that that would be very important to, to, to know how to develop and maximize.  so that's also kind of in my, I think,  personal life. I, during the pandemic, we, we live close to the Charles river and during the pandemic, I began,  running. I didn't really exercise a lot before the pandemic and.

I really am enjoying,  running. I try to run almost every day.  and you know, I've been, I'm involved also in research at MGH in which we study,  the effects of exercise on the brain and mental health. So, you know, as I am, as I'm getting more,  informative of, of the robust impact that exercise has on mental health and they kind of even encourages, even encourages me even more to actually [00:37:00] commit to this,  physical activity and I, which I really enjoy.

So, you know, hopefully at some point, maybe I'll find myself. You know, training myself for the marathon, maybe at some point is something I, I hope for the future to have some kind of a purpose,  which is focuses more on my hobby, not only my career. So what kind of

Hardeep Ranu: hobby would you, would you like to do, you know, if there's anything that you, you wish you knew more about.

I

Sharon Dekel: think painting, you know, I, I haven't,  I have, you know, I took painting with my mother paints.  my aunt,  has painted,  have a lot of family members who have even a family member who is a professional painter. There's a lot of paint painters around me.  I sometimes paint my, one of the twins paints and we sometimes paint together.

We sometimes go to the Metropolitan New York and we just,  look at one of the photos and we, and we come up, we come with our own markers and we paint very, you know, very nothing too sophisticated. And,  I'd love to learn more and maybe, [00:38:00]  take like more formal classes,  which involves,  painting.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. You know, the more I was thinking about, as we've been talking about your work, How much does it get talked about this PTSD? I mean, I, I know that, you know, it is not spoken about, but just thinking about it,  cause I was thinking of Serena Williams,

Sharon Dekel: exactly. Yes. Yes.

Hardeep Ranu: It's sort of, you know, that. But what she went through,

Sharon Dekel: yes, but she did and other celebrities and I was actually interviewed on NBC today show.

Other celebrities spoke about their PTSD in regard to childbirth. There is, there is more and more awareness, but still. relatively limited. In the fall in October, I was a keynote speaker for the American Association of Anesthesiologists. I gave them a talk about PTC phone choppers or the obstetric anesthesiologists that are [00:39:00] actually present in the labor and delivery.

 they are those, they actually are receiving, giving the epidural and, and, and other,  medications.  so that this was the first, I think, presenter that was coming from the field of mental health to kind of educate,  these,  providers.  I gave a webinar for the Texas,  department health, that would be for OB providers, obstetrical providers.

And again, I think that was their first initiative of Bringing a mental health provider who talks about PTSD. So I think hasn't really been talked about. People didn't don't really know about it so much, including delivering women. But there's really, I think, a trend towards more knowledge, more research, more awareness.

 but again, as I mentioned,  I began studying maternal PTSD. Maybe that was around 2015 or so, like two years after I joined,  MGH. And,  Some people, even the majority of people in kind of my larger team, basically,  didn't really [00:40:00] understand why I'm actually studying this. They thought it's, it's extremely rare that if a person had, has birth trauma, maybe she's like an hysterical mom who really has a lot of psychopathology.

Before she gave birth today, these people tell me, wow, you really chose a great topic because nobody's doing the research. And we are possibly really,  you know, collecting a lot of important information to fill in a critical research gap.  but some years ago it was like, why would you even consider birth to be a trauma, like going to war?

 so I'm very happy that we chose actually to, to focus on this,  research,  initiative.

Hardeep Ranu: Is there anything else that you would, you want to say? Cause as we start to wrap up the conversation,

Sharon Dekel: Yeah, first of all, it was been really,  such a delightful experience to, to talk about myself and my research and your questions were terrific.

Made me kind of making me already think about things as I'm going to run in an hour about, you know, but this idea that I really,  see. This is, I think, true for our [00:41:00] organization and, you know, Harvard Medical School at large is really,  such an important asset for the world and for women in the world.

And like, how can we, you know, really make our ideas become into real concrete actions? And,  how can we make sure that we are empowering women, especially those who, who are part of more vulnerable groups, in my research. Again, birth trauma is, is more common among black women, among Hispanic women, among people who are poor.

 we don't know enough about these people in terms of research because we have less access, access and research to these people for all kinds of reasons. You know, my vision, this is what I wish my, for myself,  this was kind of the new year that at some point at master and all, or, you know, this was, it would be part of Harvard medical school.

That's fine with me to,  develop. a center in which we would,  study and treat women for PTC fall into our birth and birth birth trauma in which the treatment is offered for free. Because, you know, I know in my research, if there is [00:42:00] treatments, treatment is coming part of the study. So that's usually a subgroup of individuals who are subjects in our research for which are the researches involved treatment, but other studies don't involve treatment.

So we do our best to  referrals for in house treatment at MGH or in the community. And again, many people have a difficult time finding the provider. People don't have the right insurance, or even if they have the right insurance, just understanding what the insurance allows them and the reimbursement.

It's just so complicated. And when you have a mental illness. Part of having a mental illness is having very limited initiation. So,  if there was eventually,  a way that we could build a center,  which we require, you know, definitely a lot of support from somebody who would want to give to the hospital, I think eventually in a, in a good world, we'll have treatment that is really offered almost, or, or free for many people who really, really would benefit, I think for the benefit of the mothers, their babies and their society.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, so your vision is [00:43:00] towards having a center for maternal mental

Sharon Dekel: health, focusing on birth trauma. Part of the research is as in being in the research, but you will receive also therapy for free. That is not necessarily part of the research, but because we know there are treatments and there are, there are providers definitely in Boston who could work in such a center.

We just need, you know, somebody to support the center. To be able to offer treatment for free. And especially because, you know, since the pandemic, we know that remote or telehealth is actually very powerful. So it's really feasible. I think we just need support for, for free therapy.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. So whoever's listening, if you want to donate a large sum of money towards having this.

 vision come, come to life, then,  please contact us and let us

Sharon Dekel: know. That would be, that would be, yeah, I think that this is the kind of world that I would like to live in that, you know, people who, you know, regardless of who they are really have access to care. Not only that we document the disparities, which we have been, but [00:44:00] actually doing something very concrete to,  close these gaps.

Hardeep Ranu: Thank you so much for doing this.

Sharon Dekel: Pleasure.

In this episode I talk veins, arteries, and leadership with Anahita Dua, a vascular surgeon and Associate Professor at Massachusetts General Hospital. Tune in to find out what she wants us to know about what it’s like to be a surgeon and doctor in 2023 and how "there'll always be another surgery."

Transcript:

Hardeep Ranu: Hello. Today I am joined by,  an assistant professor at Mass General Hospital.  her name is Anahita Dua and welcome Anahita.  would you like to introduce yourself?

Anahita Dua: Yes. Thank you. My name is Anahita Dua. I am a vascular surgeon indeed.  I've been lucky enough to actually just get promoted. So now I'm an associate professor at, 

Hardeep Ranu: Whoops, sorry.

Anahita Dua: No, no, please. Are you joking? Oh my god, even I'm not used to it.  just got promoted, so that that's really exciting, but  associate professor at Harvard Medical School and  I've been at Mass General now for four years. Prior to that, I was finishing up my fellowship at Stanford and I, at Mass General, aside from vascular surgery clinically, I am the director of one of our vascular labs.

I am the co director of our peripheral artery disease center and,  the founder of the limb evaluation amputation prevention program at Mass General and the associate director of the Wound Care Center and clinical director of vascular research. And I promise I also operate.

Hardeep Ranu: It sounds like you wear many hats from all of those positions that you, you hold.

So one thing I wanted to ask you is, so you're a surgeon, you're a vascular surgeon. And my understanding is that it's not very common for a woman to be a vascular surgeon, correct?

Anahita Dua: It is definitely becoming more common, but it's certainly not the norm.  the way that we kind of gauge it is we talk to our, our senior colleagues about when they previously had vascular meetings, how big was the room or how big was the table that housed the women that.

came to those meetings for dinner. And you know, it started out with quite literally one little table of four women and now has grown to about half the size of a classroom you can get.  there certainly are a lot of women who are coming through the training programs now, but there's still a pretty decent lack of leadership positions.

 though that is changing and there are a variety of reasons for that. And it's not just in vascular surgery. You see it in some of the other subspecialties as well,  in the surgical field.

Hardeep Ranu: So you know, I'm always interested in surgeons and how they, how, how is it that I often think of it? Is it that you, you do your surgery, right?

And then you go on and do the next part of your day, you know, it isn't like you do your surgery and then you go home. You're like, I'm done concentrating, focusing on things that I have to do, but you sort of like, okay, I'm done that. And now I'm going to go to my clinic or I'm going to go and look at my research.

How'd you find that switch?

Anahita Dua: Yeah, I know. That's a great question. Actually, it's interesting. So, you know, when you think of a surgeon doing surgery, you know, your mind comes a person with a knife. Doing something to a patient who's unconscious, hopefully, and then, you know, it ends, but actually usually that's when it starts and that's usually the case for vascular surgeons because after the procedure, that's when the patient needs to wake up.

You need to not have any complications, there can't be any bleeding, now they have to walk, then they have to pee, then they have to eat, all these other things to get back to normal. And pre procedure, you have all this stuff that has to happen before the patient is optimized for surgery in the first place.

It's a little bit like, you know, if you're flying a plane. The actual flight is a portion of what happened to that plane before it could take off. There better be a good, you know, landing and, and,  set up for it to get in the sky. And in conjunction with that kind of philosophy comes these other pieces of what it means to be a surgeon.

So for example, clinic is where you do the preoperative discussion, make a decision for surgery,  and, you know, communicate with the patients and their families. And then of course, postoperatively, you see them there as well. When you're dealing with academia, where you also have education, social service, and research as a pretty major part of your life, then indeed, you have to figure out when you're weak, what percentage of your day is going to which thing.

And unlike a lot of other disciplines, You don't have a, between 9 and 11, I'm going to do my carotid surgery. Between 11 and 1, I'm going to go to my lab. Because between 9 and 11, your surgery may finish in an hour, it may finish in 6 hours because something happened. And everything else needs to revolve around that and shapeshift almost, to be able to accommodate so that you can achieve everything that you want to in the day.

I myself,  have a research lab that studies coagulation. And we are NIH funded, so that means that, you know, I have postdocs under me, I have research people,  who, who work in the lab under me, and I have to ensure that they get the attention to help work the experiments so that we can do what we need to do to payback to the community that gave us the funding, namely the United States people, because it's the NIH.

But at the same time, I have residents who I have to let operate in the operating room. I can't just do the whole case because it's a teaching hospital and I have to guide them so that they can learn. And you know, that means a little bit of a longer case. For example, and I have to account for that when I'm planning my day.

And then of course with the social service side, I do run a clinic for patients who are afflicted by homelessness who are vascular patients. And it's not a, we're going to go to the patient on the street and look at your foot. It's very much a, hey, the next echelon, you need vascular care. as identified by a primary care doctor, how can I provide that for you in a safe and, you know, financially set by a viable manner.

And so I have to work that sort of into the day as well. And then with the titles that were mentioned previously, there's of course, administrative duties. So the way that I've done it is I, allow my day to take the course I am best expecting for that particular day based on what my achievements are for the day, which I know sounded like a lot of words.

But what I mean by that is if I know, for example, that I'm running a Harvard course, And I also have three surgeries, and I also have to ensure that I've got these residents who are in my lab. I will actually set the day up such that my surgeries will go first, so that while my patients are recovering, and I'm in the hospital anyway making sure that they recover, I'm going to do my research stuff.

And while I'm in between experiments in the lab or I'm talking to one of my postdocs, I am doing the administrative work on my computer for the Harvard Research Day. So everything is like a switch back and forth. And,  it is a style of life that I think I've finally been able to get some degree of a handle on.

Hardeep Ranu: To me, it seems as if, you know, if I was doing surgery, that once I was done that, because it's so focused. That I would be like done for the rest of the day, you know, that in my mind, that's how I think. But I know that's not how it works for surgeons and I guess it's something you just get used to.

Anahita Dua: You do.

It's a lot like, I mean, this is going to sound kind of odd, but you know, I have, I have two children. I have a five year old and a two year old. And it's a lot like that in the sense that you no longer, your life is no longer driven by you and your need. In the case of children. You know, if my son gets sick today and throws himself down the stairs, which is a thing he does, but like, you know, suddenly, whatever plan I had for, you know, 530 that afternoon is over because he just did this and I have to be very nimble and accommodating to ensure that he gets the best and it's very similar.

When I think about patients, not that it's a maternalistic paternalistic model where I'm their parent, but I am taking care of them. That's my job when they're in the hospital and their needs at that time  are what structure my day. So, hey, I had a plan to do three surgeries today. on a neck and an abdomen and a foot.

But my first patient, who was the neck patient, had a bleed. Well, crap. The rest of the day is scrapped. Must, you know, focus on this patient. Get her, him through it so that they can ultimately have a good outcome. And that means I reschedule my other two patients, which means another day is going to change.

And if I had a research meeting, that changes and you know, et cetera, et cetera. It's easy in academics to get kind of fixated on the meetings and the admin. And the promotions and the titles because to some extent that's why, you know, that's why we're here. That's what we're, we're, we want, but we got into this and we choose to do this because we are doctors.

And so the most important aspect of patient care, hands down, and it's very easy to explain to the world. When the patient comes first, you know, I call my husband, Hey, I'm not coming home tonight because I had to go back and do this patient's XYZ or a family member wants to talk or [00:09:00] something. And everybody sort of understands that.

And that allows me a little bit of leeway to be able to do what I need to do. And so I think framing it such that it's not about your day. It's about their day. They, as in the patients. Or the residents or the people that you're leading, suddenly it becomes very easy to adapt, I think, and give a hundred percent of yourself to whatever you're doing at that time.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay. So I, I think I get it. I still, it still still feels so exhausting to me, , to do that. I mean, so.  one question actually is like, what is a vascular surgeon? I mean, I know you're working on, you know, veins and arteries and stuff, but when do you come in or are you, is it sort of a specialty that you're only going to be working on somebody's, like you said, carotid artery or something like that?

Anahita Dua: Oh, that's a great question. So a vascular surgeon is a person that operates on blood vessels, whether those be arteries or veins. throughout the body except for the arteries that are in the brain, so kind of from the base of the skull up and the actual heart. Other than that, we operate everywhere. So it's an extremely diverse challenging but fun specialty and the day can range from, because the blood vessels everywhere of course, the day can range from doing a vein case in the morning to doing a very complex aortic case in the afternoon to doing carotid cases.

and a lot nowadays because of diabetes of what we call peripheral or the legs essentially and limb salvage trying to save those legs that otherwise would be amputated and the beauty of vascular surgery is like in the 80s and 90s when there was a revolution in endovascular surgery minimally invasive stents wires balloons catheters um the vascular surgeons really embraced that paradigm and now we have a whole repertoire of open procedures where you're taking a scapel and cutting on a person and identifying the artery and fixing it or bypassing it or whatever you need to do and endovascular so stents catheters wires getting aortic aneurysm for example used to only be repaired by an open procedure.

Now we can put a stent in there, decrease length of stay, decrease mortality, get patients off table faster. And so the beauty of vascular surgery is that you really can choose to hone down in one area. In our practice at Mass General, we have two vascular surgeons,  that are veins only. They trained as vascular surgeons and everything, but they decided to focus on veins and that's what they do.

I am a vascular surgeon of everything. I do, and I like it that way because I'm young and I want a nice diverse practice. But my research is focused on limb salvage. And my focus,  as I move forward,  will likely hone down on that because with diabetes again on the rise, there's a slew of patients that are coming into the medical system who are going to get amputated if we don't do novel, advanced techniques to save their legs.

But there is a common misconception that vascular surgeons, you know, I'll be at the grocery store or something and I'll talk to someone and they'll say, Oh, you're a vascular surgeon, and they'll bang out their vein and show me their leg, which is fine. And I do do veins, but that's certainly not the only thing, it's a very small part of what we do.

Hardeep Ranu: Interesting. And so the other I feel obvious question is surgery from what I can tell is a male dominated field. It's sort of like when you're going on a plane, you know, the number of times I've flown, I don't know what the denominator is, but I know that the number of female pilots I've had is been two, right?

You know, and the denominator, let's say is, you know, 75 like that. Right. So that percentage is, is pretty low. So. And I imagine it's not quite that low in surgery, but it's still a male dominated field. So how, how do you find that?

Anahita Dua: You know, so when I came into surgery, I did my general surgery training first.

So I'm board certified in general surgery. And then I went on to do vascular specifically. And I will say that, you know, [00:13:00] I, I have a few. Female mentors that are just phenomenal that got me where I am today that I mean, we call them old school, you know, they were there, the original, the OGs who like truly were in the room when men kind of had their backs to them, they weren't sitting at the table, you know, very macro level aggression.

towards their presence and that because of them obviously and their their willingness to stick it out and pave the way I am here today and things are different now in the sense that you don't have that macro level of get out you're a female like I've never experienced that. What has happened now is there's a new group of males who are my contemporaries that have been raised, quote unquote, in a different environment as they themselves, 50 percent of their residency class may have been female.

And so those people likely is because we are contemporaries and likely because we've earned respect working together, you know, are respectful. [00:14:00] And I don't think see the male, female difference as much as. Some of the older groups still do and I don't think it's conscious. It's very much an unconscious bias, but you know I'll give you an example when I was in general surgery residency We used to get what we still do even to this day But back then we used to get these written evaluations and I distinctly remember my male counterparts had on their evaluation, need to work on this suture thing, you know, excellent technically, all these operating room things.

And my evaluations were great with patients, nurses love her. Actually, I can't remember an evaluation that had anything to do with my technical skills. Not bad, not good. It evaluator. Interestingly, regardless of whether they were male or female. So, you know, there's that, that age old statement. I mean, this is a, it's a riddle that they say, and I hope I don't screw it up here, but a father and son get into a car accident and you know, they end up coming [00:15:00] to the,  emergency department.

The father dies and then the surgeon comes to operate on the son and exclaims, how, how can I operate on this person? He's my son. And then the riddle is, how can that be? And me, I, Ooh, I'm a vascular surgeon, I'm a female, I've been through general surgery residency. I, when I heard this riddle, was like, oh, maybe he, it was a gay relationship, or maybe the father had an affair, or maybe I didn't get the answer, that the mom was the surgeon.

You know, and so it just speaks to how deeply seated it's in the mind. And so it's hard to go in like challenge people, but at least bringing to the forefront that like, there are these microaggressions that happen towards females. You know, I, I have experienced myself done something, said something where a nurse will immediately go and complain to the superior about tone of voice.

Where's my male counterpart and this is an age old story. I'm not saying anything novel here But you know, it makes it challenging because to your point earlier surgery is a difficult field It's a difficult world. And if I have a complication of bleeding it needs to be that Hey, sometimes patients bleed not that you're a girl.

You can't operate and I've definitely experienced The difference, you know, when a male colleague's patient may not do so well, oh the patient was really sick, I'm sorry that you had to go through this. But in my case, it's you should have done this, you should have done that, you know, this would have been a better way.

Not wrong advice, it's just so jarring to see the difference. And so what that does to women, and what that's done to me, is you have to be better, faster, stronger. You can't have those complications, which can be one of two things. One, you start to shy away from the more powerful cases for fear. Of having a complication, and therefore being called out, and that has happened to a number of my female colleagues.

Luckily, I think about that, it's in the consciousness of my mind, and I refuse, I'm not going down like that. You know, it's been, it's been decades I've been doing this, I'm good at what I do. So what I do is the other extreme. Every case, I'm thinking, think about it, go through it in my head. How would I do this?

What would I do if this didn't work? The next step, the next step after that. And so I've managed to keep my complication rate low because everything is thought about, you know, a million times more than perhaps a counterpart. And it's exhausting to your use of the earlier word because it's everything on, and this is on top of that, but there's no way around it.

And once there's a critical mass of women, maybe 15 years from now. Maybe 75 years from now, maybe this issue will go away. But for right now, it definitely exists across the board, across the states. And I think it's a matter of time. And again, getting that critical mass of women. So women not getting driven away from academics because of all these exhausting extras and kind of sticking it out.

in the hopes that the next generation can benefit from your quote, unquote, sticking it out.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. It sounds exhausting. That really does. You have to think about something and go through all the scenarios. I mean, that just [00:18:00] sounds one of those things where it's an almost impossible thing to, to keep doing.

So I know that you've been selected for the presidential, what's it called? Leadership.

Anahita Dua: Yeah. Presidential leadership scholars.

Hardeep Ranu: Yep. Yeah. You're one of the,  presidential leadership scholars. And so I'm interested to hear more about that, you know, what it involves. Clearly somebody thinks that you are a group of people who have a committee.

has selected you as being a leader for the future or, or you have good leadership skills now. So yeah, I'd love to hear more about that.

Anahita Dua: Certainly. Oh, thanks for asking about that. Yes.  so the presidential leadership scholars program is in its eighth year and what it is is president Clinton and both president Bush's basically came together to create this leadership program that focuses on kind of making America a country where all these different types of people can work together towards a common goal.

Obviously, President Bush and President Clinton are, you know, Democrat, Republican. And, you know, to come together in this bipartisan way, it's not a political agenda at all. It's more to create leaders, whether that be on the local level or on the global level. And what it is, is they select 60 people per year from any discipline across the United States who have a project.

that they're trying to accomplish. In my case, my project is that currently in the United States, there are five black legs amputated to every one white leg. And that has to do with, you know, initially when you hear that people say, Oh, it's racial disparities because, you know, African Americans are sicker, or, you know, they don't go to the doctor enough, or, you know, some nonsense.

And actually, while there are some differences in terms of insurance and coverage, and people going to the doctor and all that. Really, a big part of it is just standardization of care and some of the unfortunate unconscious biases that come into play when a doctor sees a patient. And there is data [00:20:00] that shows that when a doctor, regardless of race, sees a patient who is white, they are significantly more likely, up to four times more likely, to try to save that leg.

then if they see a patient that is black. And again, this is not because the doctor's a jerk and like thinking, oh I'm gonna do these horrible things. It, it just plays out that way because there's kind of no oversight and, and so my whole project is about kind of eradicating that difference focusing on the legislative level.

Because if you said, hey, we're not gonna reimburse for any amputation that does not go through x, y, and z. Suddenly, you take it off the doctor's plate to make a unilateral decision about how they're going to treat the patient. So that's what my project is on, and I wrote a big essay about that, and of course I was interviewed by both people from President Clinton's group and President Bush, and then was selected.

And so what happens is we do six modules. One week per month for six months where,  the program takes us to different locations, D. C., Little Rock, Dallas, Austin, [00:21:00] Philadelphia, and we learn how to lead in a diverse group of people. And I'm not talking diverse of race, that's of course part of it, but diversity of thought specifically.

Well, how do you get that Trump supporter in a room with Bernie Sanders supporters and get them behind a common goal, making the baseline assumption that people are good? And that's really what the program is all about. So how do you do that? Well, the focus has been on kind of communication, but not in the airy fairy sense, but in the truly nitty gritty sense.

What I mean by that is you've got to have those tough conversations. What's happening in America today is that people are shying away from those conversations. because of fear. You know, we have a cancel culture. We know that already. We also have people who speak out of turn, completely uneducated and in an arrogant,  ignorant sense.

And that makes it very difficult. You know, when you're sitting in front of somebody who spout something that is completely factually incorrect. But has a baseline, you know, decision to make the human nature reaction is to say, Hey, screw you. You're not part of my in group. Get away from me. I hate you. And we have to overcome that urge and sit with these opposing parties to figure out why they think the way they think.

And then on their level. Start to change the way and and you'd be shocked how much you can learn from the opposing party make an assumption that someone says something Ignorant, you know, but actually when you start listening to them people are driven by their life experiences and guess what? They may have experienced something That makes what they're saying not untrue in that particular scenario.

And if you understand that, you can at least come to some sort of compromise about the issue at hand. If I hate you because you don't think the way I think, but we're trying to solve the like, you know, budget crisis in the United States, like, your views on LGBTQ issues, your views on women, your views on, do they play into the budget?

Not directly. So can we work together to solve this issue just because we disagree so fundamentally on a social issue? The answer is yes, you can, because humans are complex. And so the way that the program is working is by kind of breaking down that and forcing at least me personally to consciously think so when I'm faced with somebody that I'm like, Oh, God, I want to hear what you have to say.

I stopped myself. And I'm like, No, I do. I do. Tell me what you are trying to say. And then tell me why. without fear of retribution and without fear of me attacking you and canceling you and saying that you're less than a human.

Hardeep Ranu: What it sounds like is you're being mindful of what this person is saying because when you pay attention to what they're saying, you know, Like he said, you can learn something, maybe what they're actually going to say is, is useful.

What, what other things that have you picked up along the way from that in terms of leadership? Be interested to know.

Anahita Dua: Yeah. I mean, I think this idea of like leading does not [00:24:00] mean that you are, even though it sounds kind of intuitive, leading does not mean that you are the boss. Leading means that people want to follow, as in they decide that you're inspirational and that they want to do what you're saying, and that you have their best interest in mind, and that you have the wherewithal and the intelligence to take data, synthesize it, and make a decision that is In everyone's best interest, and if it's not in everyone's best interest, communicate why in, you know, for today, hey, I'm going to make a choice that's going to hurt Marjorie, but benefit Bill, this is why I chose to do it in this particular circumstance, and how this is going to come back and, you know, the transparency element of it.

And again, these are not like when people, when I say this stuff, people nod, it makes sense. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. But like, to actually have it as a part of your way of being is challenging. And I think, for me at least, the most challenging thing is to let people finish talking. It's very difficult, because [00:25:00] people do like to hear themselves talk, and I get the irony of me saying that, as I'm literally listening to myself talk.

But  you know, people will, when they're making a point to you, will start to speak in a circular fashion. Reiterate what they're trying to tell you. And interestingly as a surgeon, you know, even when I'm just lying in bed on a Sunday, which I don't remember the last time that happened, but let's pretend I am, you know, I'm still in that mindset of like, go, go, go, go, go.

So anything that I perceive as a waste of my time, which would be somebody speaking in circular logic or somebody, you know, not just spitting out what they want to say. I tend to just dismiss and move on and learning to not do that by actively listening, but also being able to direct the conversation such that I'm not sitting in my office listening to a bunch of people just whine, which is also not leadership.

That's actually, I mean, they could just do that with a stuffed animal, you know, you have to actively engage and challenge, but not in a way that shuts them down. It's hard. And those are all things that it is interesting. This course is not saying this is how you do it. [00:26:00] It's giving you the framework in which you would go on to do it.

 and there are times when it doesn't apply. Like, I'm in the operating room. The patient has come in with a gunshot wound to the, to the belly. And they're bleeding out. I am not interested. You know, this person's opinion and that person's opinion. And that's not the time. You know, my anesthesiologist might come over the curtain and say, Hey, listen, blood pressure is dropping.

And I might make a split. Oh, okay, hold on. Let's put our finger on the hole, give a bunch of blood and catch up. Yes, very good, fast. But, you know, if my anesthesiologist pokes over the, the drape and says, Hey, I'm so sorry to bother you. Like, I know this is not a good time, but I'm like, Oh my God, say it, just say it.

You know, but that's not the communication that I would have if someone's had an issue with a colleague and they're coming in to have a discussion about that. That's a very different story. And being able to understand that and change leadership styles and agendas based on the situation is something I'm learning to do through this program.

Hardeep Ranu: So for the other 59 people who've been selected, what kind of,  backgrounds do they have?

Anahita Dua: Oh, it's incredibly diverse. Some people are working on a local level. There's a colleague of mine who actually has got a,  nonprofit where she helps trafficked girls in Dallas.  another colleague of mine used to be in the film industry and now has started an app called Hadley.

It's an app that basically allows you to pick your 529 plan, which is the plan that students can use to pay their student loans. It's like Venmo basically, but for money that would go to your student loans and to your education.  I've got other colleagues that one, one works at Coke. One is a guy from the CDC who is a doctor, but isn't practicing so much as a physician, but does a lot of work with the environment.

And so just really truly diverse in every way. Which is what, again, makes the program special in that, first of all, you have a network with all these people. Like, I would never cross paths with any of these human beings. It's interesting, they're all lovely people. And I think that's the underlying theme, you know, trying to make the [00:28:00] world a better place.

And it's interesting, just to give an example, you know, you have the non profit sector, and you have people who are like, big corporations, horrible, you know, and then you, hey, here they are, sitting at a table with someone from the deepest bowels of corporate America, Who actually is a great person and who's sitting on millions and millions of dollars where they, you know, and for making jobs for people and they get to see each other's point.

And tomorrow when this guy goes back to his corporation and they're talking about where the money's going, he'll think of the colleague he just met. And when the non profit person, you know, is sitting with their colleagues and talking about how terrible corporations are. You'll be thinking of that person.

And like, that's how you build a better world. Right. So that, that's, those are the kinds of people that are in this program. And then there's me.

Hardeep Ranu: That sounds so interesting in terms for me is that, you know, when you get to network with people with different backgrounds or you get to know people of different backgrounds, you get an insight into  what the corporation thinking is like.

And so then you can bring that back to. you know, your nonprofit, not in the terms of, of adopting that style, but that when you have to go and present, let's say, you know, to these big corporate giants, you have an idea how to do that. You have an idea of what they're looking for. That's how I would look at it.

I think that's really good. And also, you know, when we talk about diversity, it's, not just the color of one's skin, it can be, you know, neurodiversity, it can be, you know, physical disabilities as well. You know, it's everything. And as well as,  this cohort that you're in, that it's from all different backgrounds and walks of life.

It sounds a bit like the MacArthur Genius Awards.

Anahita Dua: Something like that or like how like they form a cohort and like business school or like, you know, the idea that the network is just as important as the content and how you get that content delivered and how you process it is based on the network around you.

If I had only physicians, for example, in this group, I would not be able to. Get as much out of even what I'm learning because all the framework would be in the hospital Like we'd be all talking about the hospital that all our examples would be from the hospital and about patients and there's something to that As well, but not for this kind of higher level thinking I think and the idea of this cohort is that if you look at it, it's just America Like it's every type of person and again down to the beauty of it Is that they're not lazy in how they've executed A lot of the initiatives, I mean, you know, for example, the DEI initiatives,  I myself am a woman of color and, you know, we, we see this sort of people ticking a box.

There's a laziness to it. And that laziness is what then causes more problems because. When you when you're not intentional and you're not specific about what outcome you want you end up having unintended consequences and that unfortunately keeps happening because people don't really know even what exactly to do in that framework.

And so here when they're when they said we want a diverse cohort. They really made it in every facet and took the time to do that.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. That sounds fascinating. And,  one thing that you, you were talking about was networking and I'm interested to know how you found out about the JCSW and how long you've been a member.

And also for me, and I know for others, the JCSW is like a fantastic networking opportunity because. I would never have been able to talk to someone like you. I would never have been able to, you know, meet other people and make good friends through the JCSW had I not, you know, been a member and enjoy the meetings and, and things like that.

Anahita Dua: So I'm, I'm interested to hear your,  your experience. Oh, certainly.  so I, you know, as a member of the MGH community and of course Harvard's community, we get the emails from,  Harvard and one of them. was from this group and it was an opportunity to join exactly to, to network with other women who are part of this diverse community and, you know, learn from each other and be able to have a network that was outside just the hospital.

And so I signed up and then,  beyond that started to get, you know, the invites and kind of learn a little bit. And I think that's usually how most of these processes go. You don't exactly know what you're doing when you first sign up. And then as you get exposed exactly to your point, here we are having this wonderful conversation  that hopefully has some reach.

And so  every year we, we have an opportunity to get, you know, higher in leadership positions as well and be on committees. And this is another opportunity to advance that way by getting on a committee that also has something directly to do with me. So that's how I kind of got involved and have stayed involved for now three years.

Hardeep Ranu: And are you a member of one of the subcommittees?

Anahita Dua: I am.  and I'm also, well, because of again, the work schedule,  it's challenging to make any sort of meeting that takes place during the daylight hours, right? And a lot of our meetings are. So while being a part of the committee at this point, really, most of input is done via email or, you know, out of hours kind of saying, Oh, by the way, I think this or that, or the committees that have dedicated times after about five o'clock, that's been what I've been able to engage in primarily.

But as now I get higher in the ranks and have a little bit more control on my schedule, I think I'm going to certainly this coming year be engaging more so on the leadership level to see if I can steer some new people through as well.  and then getting the word out in our MGH community. That's another big piece.

of this community.

Hardeep Ranu: Oh, yeah. You're a part of the community engagement, correct? Right. What do you wish people knew about your position that they wouldn't ordinarily know?

Anahita Dua: I think the, the most important thing nowadays in 2023 is that I wish that people knew how The American health care system currently is unhealthy in and of itself.

That's what I wish people knew. There's no exact fix. There's no exact problem. It's not like if you increase Medicare, or if you decrease Medicare, or if you hire more doctors, or if you open a new med school, none of these band aids will work. There's a fundamental problem where, even today, If you have a tummy ache, you better saddle up for a six hour ER visit.

Forget the bill and everything, just your time. You want to talk to your primary care doctor about XYZ? Good luck getting an appointment. You went to go see a doctor because you had a heart attack and you now need your prescription filled? Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Because The nurse practitioner that was going to fill it, it missed, you know, in this box and that box.

And ultimately you're making phone calls and you can't get a person. And this is not specific at all to any hospital. I have trained at the Medical College of Wisconsin. I trained at Stanford. I'm not a Mass General. I do some satellite work at a New Hampshire hospital. I mean, I'm all over the place. So I know that this is a national issue.

And it's not because. Your doctors don't love you. This is what I want people to know. And it's not because We got into this, you know, for the money or anything, and believe me, that's not why anyone gets into medicine. It's because we love our patients and we want to do right by you. And we hurt when you hurt, especially when it's something logistical that we may not necessarily have control over.

I'll give you a clear cut example. We all get rated a little bit like Uber drivers with stars based on how the service was provided to a patient, which is weird to even say. But, you know, patient does well. Outcome is good. You're getting, you know, bedside manner is good. Everything eye control, done well.

Five stars, five stars. But then, part of that rating is time it took to see the doctor. Oh, it was six months. Two stars. Hey, when I was in hospital, I wanted the red jello. You told me I could have it, but the menu didn't come in time. Two stars. And I don't, I mean, I wish I could sit here and tell you I don't care about the stars.

I mean, we have to. That's, that's how it works, unfortunately. I mean, I don't inherently care, but I have to because of the system. But what I do care about is that patients are clearly not having a good experience. And we can even say, sadly, a good quote, consumer experience, since ultimately medicine is a business in the United States of America, and people make money from your illness.

 right or wrong, that's a whole nother story. I went to medical school in the UK and I have seen the NHS, which is the Nationalized Healthcare System. So I could sit here for three hours and tell you all the things wrong with that as well. So I'm not advocating for one side or another. There are definitely pros and cons on both sides in terms of [00:37:00] quality, in terms of time to seeing a doctor, in terms of, you know, holding the doctors accountable.

But I do want my patients to know that. You know, we love you very much. And as the healthcare system takes us further and further away from you because of billing and computers and notes and all these things, we're sorry. And we're trying to fight it on the legislative level, but, you know, bear with us and,  Unlike the olden days where you're waiting for that call back after you call the doctor, nowadays patients, you have to take it upon yourselves.

You made a phone call for a drug, you didn't get it, you were supposed to get a prescription, make another call because that phone call you're waiting for may never come because something fell through the clacks because the system is just too overstressed.

Hardeep Ranu: It sounds really frustrating and sad. Mm hmm.

And the also, as you were saying, the ratings, it almost sounds like, you know, the Amazon ratings. Yeah. But also, you know, when you look at them, there's always somebody who says, Oh my God, it came, didn't come in time. It should have been here. And they've given it one star and it's, you know, really reviewing the [00:38:00] thing, you know, you want to buy the blender or something.

You're reviewing Amazon's. service or something. So it speaks to your, what you were saying about the, the menu or something that they didn't have any of the red Jell O, you know, and they really wanted the green or whatever, whatever it was, you know, then you give it two stars. That's not really reflective of you as the surgeon.

Right.

Anahita Dua: Right. And to some extent, that's also difficult. You know, if you rate bedside manner, you rate, but Medicine is a weird situation between the doctor and patient because the doctor knows so much about the problem and the patient is coming in and trusting essentially a stranger with the most intimate of intimate things.

And so there's a very clear difference in the power dynamic. And it's hard to then turn around and ask the patient. I mean, it's, it's a little bit like asking students to rate the teacher. If you are in math class, And your teacher shouts at you because you show up late and you didn't do your homework.

Then if you ask that student to rate the teacher, even though they've learned so much because the teacher was so strict, you know, they give that teacher one star because they hate him. You know, like. It's a weird, and you can do that if you want, but you also have to then acknowledge the situation that has arisen.

I have a partner who was, we were just talking about this, he got rated low because the patient loved him, but the patient couldn't find parking on the day of their procedure. Which is a problem. I mean, of course, you're getting stressed out. You're coming in for a big neck surgery or whatever, and you can't find a parking spot.

I mean, we all know that's like horrible. You go to Whole Foods and you can't find a parking spot. You freak out, let alone, you know. But what is he going to do? And if that's not going to reflect, online to say, Hey, this is not a good doctor. That's a problem. You know, and I don't know what the answer is. I mean, on the one hand, you patients shouldn't have to think about that stuff and they need to rate things badly to say, Hey, you need another parking structure, but probably not on the [00:40:00] form that rates doctor, but that's the only form you get.

How was your experience? Which is kind of a, a weird thing to say in the medical profession. So, I mean, I guess, you know, to your earlier question as to like what I want patients to know is that, you know, there is this complex system and,  we would love, you know, to hand in hand solve this with you, but it's not simplistic.

It's not just insurance companies are bad. It's never that simplistic. It's very much a complex issue, but it can be solved. We're humans for God's sake. You know, we've gone to the moon. We can solve this. You just need the right people with the right agenda, sitting in a room, making these decisions and having the power to execute them.

Hardeep Ranu: So two questions. that I've been asking people is what's one professional skill that you would like to work on or are working on and ones, what is one personal skill that you would like to work on or are working on?

Anahita Dua: So,  from a professional angle, I am always  working on my leadership skills because I'm I, as I get higher and higher in the ranks, I have more and more people who I hope would like to follow the type of change I'm trying to lead and learning how to balance, you know, living my, my life, doing my job for my patients and the community, but simultaneously having time to help those who are part of my group.

I'm working on that. And that's going to be a lifelong thing, you know, watching other leaders who are successful, watching ones that are not, and being able to start to apply it and see what works and what doesn't. Also recognizing that it's different. You know, my, my male partner can get away with sometimes just being very, what, what I would perceive as very curt, very sharp, and it's okay.

 people sort of, ah, ha ha, you know, that's fine. I cannot. Yeah. And again, it's not a matter of fair or not fair. It's a matter of society and society's perceptions. You know, there was that book by Sheryl Sandberg lean in and she kind of alludes to this phenomenon of like the women being perceived as like maternal.

So if you're, you know, for lack of a better word, yelling at someone because they did something wrong, even if you're right, they will be jarred by the fact that you're yelling in your tone of voice. with your female, you know, vocal cords. And if a man kind of says, Hey, shut up, the same thing. You just said it's sort of not accepted is not the right word, but I don't think it's as striking as when women do it.

And that's, I think, why we get reported more. We get, you know. admonished more we get because it bites sharper for some reason. And that again, that's not wrong or right. That is what it is. And so being able to understand these things and work within the system to be successful. That's what I'm, I'm working on professionally.

Personally, I am absolutely working on listening more to my family who definitely goes to the wayside.  I keep thinking to myself, ah, you know, my son is two and my [00:43:00] daughter is five. I got all the time in the world. I mean, I know consciously that's not the case. I definitely take on a lot more things than I probably quote unquote have to.

My patients have my cell phone number and, you know, that sounds very noble and very nice and it is to some extent, but it is extreme. It's also very intrusive and unnecessary. Patients don't necessarily need to have your cell phone number, you know, and so I'm working on striking that balance. I don't want to say work life balance.

That's not exactly what I mean. I mean just more being able to know what my boundaries are personally and not thinking of that personal boundary as a weakness, which is definitely how I was raised and what I do perceive when, you know, Oh, I'm going to, I have to work on Sunday, I got to get this case done.

Ah, it's my daughter's birthday party. Hmm. How do I, you know, instead of just being like, you know what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No one's going to die if I just do this case tomorrow, you know, and sort of working on that.  personally, we'll see how that goes.

Hardeep Ranu: Is there anything else that you would like to work on?You know, something, you know, fun.

Anahita Dua: I think, you know, I am one of those really blessed people where my job is fun as cliche as that sounds. I mean, it has to be right. There's no way that I would be sitting here, you know, unbathed for two days, loving to operate if it wasn't fun. So, I'm so lucky, you know, when I do sit and listen to my colleagues and even my husband who's not a doctor, he runs a data analytics company, but you know, sitting in those meetings just droning on and on, oh my God, I would like, I couldn't, I couldn't do it, you know?

So I don't have anything particular that I am not doing, which is one of, I feel one of the benefits and beauties of my life is that I feel I'm really, I'm exactly where I need to be right now. I'll be 40 this year. I've done the things I want to do and I, I have aspirations for the next decade and the decade after.

 so there's, there's nothing really particular. I want to make sure that,  my kids are raised well, [00:45:00] good humans. That's obviously also a work in progress. And if they turn out not to be good humans, I will blame my husband's genetics. So it won't be my fault either way.

Hardeep Ranu: It's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like for you, you know, like I was sort of thinking about, well, you know, you being in surgery, it's like a bit like you being, you know, a farmer in the field, they're doing what they like born to do, you know, that that's the thing that they like doing.

And so from what you were saying, it sounds like, you know, you're saying that this is the best job in the world. I'm so lucky to have it.

Anahita Dua: Oh, for sure. Absolutely. I, I really, really feel that way. And within surgery, I feel vascular is the best job in the world. I mean, it's so cool for lack of a better, so, and, and you want to have that, right?

That excitement. I mean, you get called, if someone's waking you up at 3am in the morning, believe me, it needs to be something super cool. And it tends to be. So, I, I do agree with you, I think [00:46:00] that is, that's what I'll say, you know, to the women out there that like, cause it can be, to your point, of course, earlier as well, you know, when you're operating, you're operating, you're, you're, you're scrubbed, you're sterile, you're in the zone, for the most part, no one's really bothering you, but then you do step back into the real world and your gun and gloves come off and.

There's some microaggression or something unfair happens or you get passed up for a promotion or you get a demotion because, you know, someone feels someone else should get it. And it can be very hard to just keep going. And that's the beauty of my job though. Like sometimes when those situations do arise, there's always a surgery right around the corner to remind me why I'm in this in the first place.

Again, I've come back to my kids. I use that as an example. You know, my son has developed this thing where he like, he's potty training. So he's thought to himself that if he needs to poop, he should poop on himself and then sit on the toilet. So it's like double the work for me, because not only has he completely pooped in his pants, he then spreads it all over the toilet seat.

But you know what? That, and that sucks, but Then I'm playing with him or, you know, we're watching bubble guppies or something and he giggles and we play and then it's like totally worth it and surgery is very similar to that. I got my poop on the seat that I have to clean up sometimes and then I right around the corner.

I've got my awesome procedure where I really get to help people, you know. And,  really get to enjoy the relationship I form with these people and their families, and truly can't give you an explanation. You know, a little bit when astronauts talk, they tell about that feeling when they see Earth for the first time and, and only they really know what they're talking about.

It's the same thing with surgery. There's a sensation that You can only really experience if you are, I think, in that position. And that's what you spend your whole life chasing that feeling.

Learn about today's guest, Ksenia Kastanenka and her love of mentoring. She is an Assistant Professor at Massachusetts General Hospital and we also discuss the benefits of networking as well as her research on slow-wave sleep in Alzheimer's Disease.

Transcript:

Hardeep Ranu: [00:00:00] Okay.  hello today. I am joined by, uh, senior Kastanenka, who is an assistant professor at mass general.  senior, would you like to introduce yourself, please?

Ksenia Kastanenka: Yes, thank you so much for having me here, Hardeep. So, my name is Senia Kastanenka, that's Senia K, silent, and I'm an assistant professor here at Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School.

I run a research laboratory that specializes in studies of Alzheimer's disease. We use, uh, leading edge methodologies, including optogenetics and multi photon microscopy, as well as wide field imaging with voltage sensors. to study circuit disruptions in mouse models. We also partner with industry leaders on development of therapies for Alzheimer's disease.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay, and from what I've read, it's like you're looking at [00:01:00] sleep disturbances, correct? That's right. In, uh, in Alzheimer's and you have a mouse model.

Ksenia Kastanenka: Yes, exactly. So in addition to, uh, memory disruptions, Alzheimer's patients, especially in early stages of their disease progression, exhibit sleep disturbances.

So it's a very common occurrence where they have difficulty falling asleep and staying asleep. And we discovered a disruption in the brain rhythm called slow oscillations that are important for memory consolidation during sleep. So using optogenetics and a variety of other technologies, we established a causal role between sleep disruptions and Alzheimer's progression.

So it's not simply an epiphenomenon of the disease, but the sleep disturbances and disruptions in underlying brain rhythms that are associated with sleep are actually contributing to Alzheimer's progression.

Hardeep Ranu: So does that have anything to do with, you know, that [00:02:00] sundowning that's seen in like dementia patients?

Ksenia Kastanenka: Is it similar exactly to that? Exactly, yes. You got it. You got it. That's exactly it. So one of the major concerns that the caregivers,  voice about taking care of Alzheimer's patients is the, you know, is the issues with sundowning. So yeah, it's,  it's definitely, you know, it's definitely a big. problem and we're hoping to shed more light,  on it, especially the, some of the mechanisms underlying,  these issues in mouse models.

Hardeep Ranu: And I would imagine this kind of has implications on sleep and in general, you know, informing about, uh, sleep patterns and circadian rhythms and what's best. And, you know, what is it when we can't sleep, but we go through periods of insomnia. you know, what kind of information you get from this and how it relates to sort of quote unquote, normal, healthy people.

Ksenia Kastanenka: So as you know, sleep is very important. And, uh, for those of you in the [00:03:00] audience that have a small child, for instance, that's going through sleep training,  it was, we really start to value sleep. We realize that sleep is very important. It's important for restorative function, right? So for us to just.

function normally and to be alert and also sleep is important for memory consolidation. So that's something that happens during deep non REM sleep. So as soon as we fall asleep, we hit very shortly after we hit this deep non REM sleep. And during that period, we consolidate all of the important memories that we need to remember for future use.

for instance. So if there was a big event that happened the day prior, uh, we will be remembering that event. And that is due to memory consolidation. So as you can imagine, if Alzheimer's patients have difficulty sleeping and they're not, uh, spending as much time in that deep non REM sleep, they will have difficulties consolidating memories.

So it's, it's not unusual for Alzheimer's patients [00:04:00] not to remember what happened the day prior and that is because of the sleep issues that they're having.

Hardeep Ranu: How do you test it in your mouse models? How, how do these tiny little mice, how do you figure out what, what their sleep cycles are?

Ksenia Kastanenka: How do you work it out?

We are very fortunate in the field of Alzheimer's disease. We have a variety of different mouse. models. So we have these transgenic mouse lines where we have our overexpression of human mutations in the protein, in the, in the genes that code for the proteins that are associated with Alzheimer's disease in humans.

In sporadic forms of Alzheimer's disease, so we use these transgenic mouse models and the mouse model that we used was a mouse model of amyloidosis who deposit amyloid blacks, and these are the protein aggregates that are associated with early stages of Alzheimer's disease. So we use these mouse models and we saw disruptions of [00:05:00] the, uh, the sleep dependent brain rhythms, slow oscillations specifically, and it was really interesting to see parallels in the human literature.

So as we were just making these discoveries, we came across a rich body of literature, uh, where. Alzheimer's patients in early stages of the disease progression, early Alzheimer's disease, or even during mild cognitive impairment, or health, even healthy individuals that already have amyloid deposits in their brains, those individuals exhibit similar disruptions in this brain rhythm, slow oscillations.

So it was really remarkable to see how well our mouse models of Alzheimer's disease recapitulate. the disruptions, the brain rhythm disruptions that were seen in Alzheimer's patients.

Hardeep Ranu: So you have, you're not doing all this by yourself, I imagine, you're not just sitting at the bench with all these like tiny mice doing all these experiments.

So you have a [00:06:00] lab, correct? How big is your lab? And the transition from being an instructor, you know, from being postdoc to instructor, and then now instructor, assistant professor, you know, now you're no longer on the bench doing your own experiments. Now you, you, you have a, you're commanding a team of people.

How, how have you found that, you know, in terms of this research as well, you know, pushing it forward?

Ksenia Kastanenka: That's right. That's right. So actually my career path has been kind of unusual. I joined Massachusetts General Hospital. As a postdoctoral fellow, I trained in the laboratory of Brian Baski and Brent Hyman here at, uh, at Mass General and I was promoted to instructor and then I was promoted to assistant professor within the same institution, which is kind of unusual.

in academic field. So now I run a research laboratory. We are a team of nine, and I'm really fortunate to have recruited really brilliant individuals [00:07:00] from all over the world.  so we are, we have postdoctoral fellows, we have research technicians, we have a graduate student that is part of the team. And it's, it's been really remarkable to, you know, to, to watch these individuals grow, right.

It's been quite an adjustment to my thinking, to the mindset when I transitioned from postdoc being a postdoctoral fellow, where I did a lot of work on my own at the bench, to running a research team where I'm more or less, uh, behind the lines and, uh, and leading and mentoring these, these bright individuals.

Hardeep Ranu: So you said you've hired this great team of people. So what do you look for, you know, to get these great people to join your lab? What are you looking for when you're interviewing them or talking with them, looking at their CVs, that kind of thing? You know, what, what's the spark that, that you're like, okay, I know, I want, I want this person in my lab.

Right.

Ksenia Kastanenka: So,  the field of Alzheimer's disease has [00:08:00] been mired by a great number of failures when it comes to therapeutic development. So, we had a couple of FDA approvals just relatively recently for anti amyloid therapies that are thought to be disease modifying. So, we are really in the beginning stages of You know, get into the therapeutic development for Alzheimer's disease.

So there is a great pent up need. There are a lot of individuals with Alzheimer's disease that have been waiting for a cure for a very long time. So my goal, the goal of my lab is to,  help make that change, right? We have to work together. We have to work with academics in multidisciplinary teams, and we have to partner with the industry.

Who can actually bring the drugs to the market so that Alzheimer's individuals could benefit from those. So where I see,  our role is to be able to contribute to that effort. And [00:09:00] for that, we need a great team, as you mentioned. So what do I look in, uh, in my trainees? I look for motivation,  motivation to work, uh, towards that cure for Alzheimer's disease.

They have to be really excited to be, you know, to be in this field. It's okay if they're new, but the motivation have to be, it has to be there. And as you know, here in the Boston area, we have a variety of training resources. So not only do we develop these individuals in terms of their technical expertise, all of the methodologies that they need to learn, they need to develop their expertise in Alzheimer's disease, but also they have to develop professionally, right?

So now we're starting to realize that in order to make that transition from a postdoctoral fellow to assistant professor, who's able to run their research lab and manage their research laboratory, there are a lot of different skills that are necessary. And those include mentoring. [00:10:00] Mentoring is very important.

Those include, uh, grant writing. It's really imperative to be able to bring funding into the laboratory so we're able to work on the studies that we really want to, to work on. And it's really important to be able to present. your research. That is really key. And we work with my team on development of those skills.

I realized that it's really important for them to develop those skills as part of their doctoral training with me.

Hardeep Ranu: So it's really about motivation. How excited are they to be in the lab? How excited are they to show up for work every day? That's what you're looking for. That kind of spark in people.

That's one thing that when you were speaking, do you take kind of like that industry project management view on, on how your lab works?

Ksenia Kastanenka: So, you know, I,  I realize that here at Mass General, we are in the business of training. [00:11:00] Right? So we are a training facility where we train postdoctoral fellows so they're able to get the skills, the techniques, the know how necessary to make the transition to their next step.

So I don't treat them as my employees, I, uh, treat them as my mentees.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay. And so how have you found that in terms of being the mentor and Doing the mentoring. I mean, what, what do you like about it or what do you don't like about it as well? You know, and what kind of advice would you give to, to people who are sort of just starting out or what would you like people to know?

now that you didn't know before?

Ksenia Kastanenka: So I personally really enjoy mentoring. I enjoy interacting with my trainees as well as in other,  trainees within the [00:12:00] Massachusetts General Hospital in general.  and even at the conferences, I get approached all the time and being asked for advice and,  I readily share that advice.

It's,  it's been quite a learning curve for me,  how to become a better mentee, because obviously I've been mentored through all the stages of my career.  and I can talk a little bit about that as well, but also I had to learn how to become a good mentor. And that's, that's important as well. So in terms of mentees, if you are in early stages of your career, it's really important to find individuals that will give you the right advice for the right step.

You are, you are planning to take, for instance. So I would divide mentoring into three parts. There are three types of mentors and those are mentors. The bonafide mentors, uh, sponsors. and coaches. And I [00:13:00] would recommend having multiple of each. So what do mentors do? So mentors usually share their experience.

Look, this is how I did this. This, these are the steps I've taken. And,  that's what got me where I am today. So they basically share their experiences in the hopes that, uh, those experiences would be helpful for their mentees. A sponsor is somebody who works in the, in the back, right? Somebody who it would advocate on your behalf behind closed doors.

So for instance, if you are, let's say up for promotion, right? So a sponsor would be. Somebody who will say, Oh, uh, she or he is a great candidate for promotion, for instance, a sponsor is also,  that individual could be your postdoctoral mentor, right? Because that's the individual that could be paying your salary, could be paying for the,  materials and supplies that you use in your research project and so on.

[00:14:00] So that would be sponsor somebody who is supporting you,  either financially or, or, or not. And then there's a coach, right? So, coach is somebody who is asking,  really challenging questions, right? Somebody who is tailoring their advice based on your need. So,  I think that it's really important to seek out mentors,  sponsors and coaches, especially during early stages of the career, uh, because it's really important, you know, there's such a thing as making the right moves to get to the finish line.

And one of the biggest challenges that early stage investigators make is really making that transition from being a postdoctoral fellow. To an assistant professor to running their research laboratory, and I think especially at that junction, it's really critical to get the right advice to, you know, to increase the success of [00:15:00] making that transition.

So that's from the mentor and mentee standpoint.

Hardeep Ranu: So now you're, you're at the assistant, assistant professor level. So you're now like the manager, right, of this lab. Have you had any kind of formal management training, or is it sort of learning as you go and, you know, making mistakes? And do you wish you could have some?

Formal management training. Do you think that would be beneficial? Or do you think that all people who get, you know, promoted from instructor to assistant professor should have it?  because, you know, it's like notorious that in academia, there are, you know, it's sort of rife with,  bad managers. They're great academics, they're great, brilliant scientists, but they're poor managers.

Ksenia Kastanenka: That's a fantastic question, and it's a great point. So I,  as I mentioned, I had to adjust my mindset, right, from working at the bench and being focused [00:16:00] on my work and being kind of, you know, really selfish to make sure that my things work out without really, you know, thinking about, you know, others because there was no need for that, right?

I was working more or less on my own, on my own project and leading my own project. So now I have to step back and I have to make sure that not I succeed, but my team succeeds, because if they are doing well, we're all doing well. We are, we are a team. And I mean, I have to say, unfortunately, there wasn't much training that was available.

 there was some train, you know, there was some training available, I believe through Harvard Catalyst. Uh, which is a fantastic website for those of you who are within the Harvard community. And even for those who are not, I highly recommend checking out the courses that are available on Harvard Catalyst.

 they did have a professional development workshop. I believe it was a two day workshop and that was [00:17:00] remarkable. It was really, really good and I really enjoyed. I learned a lot from it. But I have to say it's not,  it's not a lot of resources. There's,  our, uh, institution also has Massachusetts General Hospital has Center for Faculty Development.

They have, they used to have workshops and you're able to meet with, with mentors there and they will provide you with advice and things like that. So individual institutions could have resources and whatever those  resources are I highly recommend taking advantage of those because it's, you know, we are not trained.

It's not part of a graduate student, uh, uh, school curriculum or postdoctoral curriculum to learn how to run a research lab. And there are a lot of different components, uh, to it,  besides the, you know, leading a research

Hardeep Ranu: project. So do you think that you think even like, even now, let's say that you could benefit or you would like [00:18:00] to, or you, you know, if, if the possibility existed for you to get management training, I, you know, formal, let's say it's a leadership, I would, let's say, call it leadership training, would you take it?

Would that be something that would interest you?

Ksenia Kastanenka: Absolutely. I think we need more of these types of opportunities, especially for junior stage investigators to learn how to do it right from, from the get go. Yeah. I think that would really benefit research leaders.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, some kind of course, you know, leadership for scientists or something would, would probably be really, you know, well subscribed, I would think, you know,

Ksenia Kastanenka: I agree.

I absolutely agree with your Hardeep deep.

Hardeep Ranu: And so as a mentor, What do you find hard? Oh wow, that's

Ksenia Kastanenka: a fantastic question.  I mean, when, when we first start out, everything is hard. It seems like because everything comes in at once, right? So you're given some [00:19:00] research space. Uh, you have some ideas to test and then they say go And good luck and that usually comes with a tenure clock We don't have tenure here at massachusetts general hospital, but you know at other institutions There is a time within which you have to accomplish these goals So right away you have to start looking for funding you have to apply for funding you have to start recruiting Individuals to your group.

 you have to start traveling quite a bit to increase visibility of your work. You have to network within your institution. If you are new to that institution, if you were newly recruited, uh, to that academic institution, then you have to start networking within your department, within your institution, within, uh, Administrators, with administrators in general, just to figuring out how to run things.

Or if you're promoted from within, you have to extend your reach, right, within your institution to see if there are potential collaborators [00:20:00] within your institution and also beyond.  it's really important to get involved in grant review. So I would highly recommend,  reviewing grants and reviewing papers.

And being open to those types of opportunities because those will not only help you learn about grant writing in general, and, you know, see what's going on in your field, but it will also come with networking opportunities when you're interacting with other individuals, and then once. You know, uh, you have your research lab.

Once you have some funding and you're getting going, you know, there are things like COVID, COVID sets in and you have to deal with that and, you know, your mentees start, you know, having children or they're, you know, they're getting married. Or they need to visit their family if their family is not in the United States.

So it's a lot that comes all at once and you start realizing, you [00:21:00] know, that you're responsible for a lot of different things, but at the end of the day, I think it's, um. It's really rewarding because you see the fruits of your labor, right? You see that graduate student getting their Ph. D. You know, they're giving their defense and getting their Ph.

D. You see that postdoctoral fellow making the transition to their next career stage. You see, you know, a technician who's been wanting to get into graduate school or medical school are finally getting to do that. So it's, it's really, really remarkable to, to witness that and be a part of that.

Hardeep Ranu: One thing that you had mentioned is that you work with, you know, a sort of multi disciplinary area.

And one of the things with those is like, you have to know how to work with the different types of people, the different backgrounds. sort of almost like the different languages that they speak. How do you deal with that? And also, how would you, how do you help your mentees deal with [00:22:00] that? You know, sort of being able to work with, let's say the imaging side of things or the genetic side of things, you know, all of that data analysis versus, you know, somebody who's like.

purely being at the bench, right?

Ksenia Kastanenka: So, as I mentioned, you know, Alzheimer's disease is a big problem, right? And it's not because we're just starting to work on it. You know, as a field, we've spent a lot of time and effort and energy,  on Alzheimer's problem and it's still. More or less unsolved. And you know, we're starting to realize, especially here at Mass General, that we need expertise from multiple different, you know, walks of life, right?

We need different experts to come together and think about this problem. So I am very fortunate to be part of the department here in Department of Neurology at Massachusetts General Hospital, where on daily basis, I get to interact with neurologists. who see Alzheimer's patients, right, who interact with those patients and [00:23:00] talk to those patients.

 I get to work with neuroscientists that think very differently. They don't necessarily have the patient and, you know, emphasis in mind. They think more about, you know, neural circuits. Or how, you know, all the bits of neuroscience can be put together and apply to the,  Alzheimer's problem. I get to work with molecular biologists who think, you know, who think differently, computational neuroscientists.

So it's really is remarkable to be part of, of this environment here at MGH. And,  one thing that I think, um. is the key to, to all of us working together is finding a common language, right? So we have to communicate, even though we're coming from different training backgrounds, different experiences. I think once we come together, And we find that common language where we're able to, to talk and discuss and come [00:24:00] together.

I think that's when, you know, beautiful things happen and really seminal discoveries take place. So I think it's really key to be able to communicate with each other. Yeah,

Hardeep Ranu: it's that sort of diversity thing. You know, it's sort of not always the color of one's skin. It's your different experiences that really,  bring these, like you said, these new discoveries to light.

When you have different people looking at the same problem from different points of view, it, it,  makes a big difference in terms of moving these kind of big problems forward. So as you were talking about the multidisciplinary side of things and, and working with all these different types of people, you know, what brought up a question for me was like, in terms of networking, you know, because that's networking as well.

And, and one of the things with the JCSW that is huge is networking with people who you would never normally have spoken to before. So I wonder if you want to talk about [00:25:00] networking for you and also how you find networking. You know, if, if you find it difficult, if you find it easy, you know, what kind of advice would you give to someone who didn't like networking or, you know, that, that kind of thing?

Ksenia Kastanenka: Yes. So I've been a part of JCSW for, for a while now, and it's, it's really remarkable,  what they have done. They really brought us together and, you know, it's, it's a lot of women at all different levels. of training from all different backgrounds and we all come together and we share our experiences and you know, we have speakers that we interact with.

It's really a remarkable, remarkable group of women and I'm really excited to be a part of that group. And networking comes into it, right? Because we get to meet, uh, these amazing exceptional women from different walks of life. So I personally, at this point, genuinely [00:26:00] enjoy networking. I genuinely enjoy meeting new people and learning about their backgrounds, their experiences, whatever they have to say.

 I really enjoy those interactions. It hasn't always been the case when I was  an undergraduate or even a graduate student. I was this introvert who was really happy in the dark room Taking images of my data and not really talking to anybody So I really relate for those introverts that are a little weary of going up to somebody and saying Hi, my name is so I think um You know, over the course of my multitude of my trainings, I learned that networking is really key to, you know, to, to, to being promoted, to being successful at, at whatever it is you're being, you know, you're trying to accomplish.

I think it's really important to be able to talk to the right people. So the advice I [00:27:00] would give. Is if you're just,  you know, if you're in early stages of your career and you're, if you're a little bit weary about networking, try to put yourself in situations where you would feel comfortable approaching an individual, right?

So,  let's say you want to meet somebody, you know, who,  let's say is a assistant professor somewhere at another institution from yours. So where would that individual be open to having, you know, a pleasant, polite conversation with you or you would feel comfortable? And some of those options could be at scientific conferences, right?

So when we go to a scientific conference, we turn on this. extrovert mindset and we put the introvert kind of on the back burner and we are there to meet others. We expect other people to be there who we, you know, might not necessarily know or want to meet. So it [00:28:00] just provides,  you know, an environment and opportunity for those connections to be made.

So I think it's really important, you know, if you're just starting out to not be shy and to put yourself in these situations, you know, by attending conferences. Also, if there, let's say there is a seminar speaker in your department and you're really interested in meeting them,  you know, after their seminar is over, go, go up to them and introduce yourself and say, Oh, what a wonderful speaker.

I really, you know, I know a lot about your work. I really, you know, enjoyed listening to your talk and that already, you know, breaks the ice and starts that initial conversation. And then once you become better at networking, I would recommend reaching out to others through um. Something called informational interview.

So for instance, if this is an individual that you're not really, you don't really have a strong connection with yet. [00:29:00] And if you know if you are would like to ask them something or willing to learn from them, you know, just putting together a quick email with a subject informational interview where you would ask them for a few minutes of their valuable time so that you could ask a few questions about their career, about their lab, about whatever it is that interests you.

They would be more,  amenable to meeting with you, you know, via phone, zoom, or perhaps even in person. So there are different ways that you could approach, you know, networking. Yeah, it

Hardeep Ranu: isn't always what people say, you know, working the room. It's, it's sort of just going up to one person and talking to them.

Ksenia Kastanenka: Exactly. Yes. I, you know, I find that If I, uh, the connections are made, uh, you know, gen when genuine connections are made, when, uh, you are actually learning about the other individuals, right? When you're asking them questions that they [00:30:00] are, you know, open to answering and that creates a connection that could then be lasting, right?

Because ultimately you don't want to just, you know, meet everybody in the room. You want to make sure that you meet some individuals that will.  you know, and establish those connections that will last into the future.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. It's about who you want to connect with, with authentically, you know, genuinely who, who, who you like as a person is, is how I look at it, you know, you know, am I going to like this person?

I seem to like this person. So, you know, let me, you know, just keep, keep on saying hello when we, when we meet and ask about. themselves or just small things, you know, add up to, to making a great connection is what I found. Yeah.

Ksenia Kastanenka:  you know, I, I'm always asked, uh, from, you know, graduate students or technicians or postdoctoral fellows, but [00:31:00] why would that, you know, renowned individual want to talk to me?

Who am I to talk to them? And, you know, like, and that always baffles me because You know, we as scientists, we genuinely, uh, enjoy interacting with other, with other scientists, regardless, you know, of where they are, whether junior, whether senior, we, we just generally enjoy talking about science and getting to know each other.

 so yeah, so I think, you know, it's, it's not an excuse. It's really important to come out of that shell and try to make those connections. So,

Hardeep Ranu: one of the things that when we had the meeting, the, with, uh, the former director of the NSF, uh, France Cordova, one of the things that she said was, like, she was asking, like, how did you get the jobs, you know?

And she's like, I just went up to people and, and asked them, or talked to them. I mean, and I was like. That right there is [00:32:00] the, how to do it. She's like, she wasn't afraid to go and

Ksenia Kastanenka: talk to people. Exactly. Yeah. I think it's really important to be a go getter, right? And have that mindset that,  things won't necessarily come to me.

If there's something I want,  I have to go and get it. I have to make that initial connection. And you never know, maybe that individual was looking. For an applicant that is very similar to what you are on, you know, on on the CV to fill that job. So they might be waiting for you to come to them. But yet, yet, if you don't make that initial connection, then you'd never get the job.

So, yeah, I absolutely agree. It's,  You know, it's really important to reach out to people and, you know, introduce yourself and make that initial connection that could lead to that interview, perhaps a job or whatever it is you're looking for.

Hardeep Ranu: The [00:33:00] other thing that I find is that, you know, when you talking to different people, even if it's just different people in your department who you are not, you know, they're from a different lab group, but once you get talking to them, I always find that when you find out what their background is, what their knowledge base is, and then when you come across across a problem and you're like, oh, okay, I think that so and so, you know, they had, they have expertise in this.

Exactly. Let me just walk down the hall and ask. them. I mean, it's such a huge thing to be able to do that to problem solve.

Ksenia Kastanenka: Yeah, exactly. And you know,  what I like to do whenever I pass people in the hallway, I, I do a lot of small talk and I really enjoy that. You know, how are you, how are the kids, what are you working on?

What's going on? What's on your mind? And. You, you get to know a lot of things. So let's say if you're faced with a certain problem a couple of days later, you know exactly who to ask to get a quick response, right? [00:34:00] And that individual might not be your best friend, but they just know, they know an answer that you're looking for.

So I think, you know, network can be on a really deep level, right? Where, you know, you're asking, Oh, what did you do your career, your advice, all these different things, but it can be something really similar. Let's say I'm looking for a certain antibody,  that I want to use. And this one individual saying, Oh, I'm staying with, I'm staying with this antibody and you just go over, can I, can I borrow a little bit, a couple of microliters?

So it's, it's as simple as that, you know,  it's really important to, you know, to make that eye contact, you know, talk to the people and,  it solves a lot of problems.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. I mean, making friends with the, you know, the group down the hall, you know, if you've run out of dry ice and you've got, you know, you're like, Oh, I'll just go ask my friend down the hall.

Maybe they got a little bit of dry ice that I can use, you know, because we've run out. It's huge. It's like the little, little things make such a huge difference.

Ksenia Kastanenka: Oh yeah. [00:35:00] And then they come over and they ask you for things, which is great. That's exactly how it works, right? It's back and forth.  and that's another thing about networking, right?

It's, you know, You see what you want to get out of that relationship, right? It's a take, but it's also a give, right? I think it's really important to give and,  whatever it is, right?  you know, different individuals might need different things, but when you're there at the right moment and you provide them with that, something that they need, they will remember.

Right. They will remember. So the next time when you're approaching them, they're like, Oh, sure. Of course I will do this for you. Right.

Hardeep Ranu: So we're, we're getting up to time. And so there's two questions that I've been asking people. One is what's one professional skill that you would like to work on or are working on?

And what's one personal skill that you would like to work on or are working on?

Ksenia Kastanenka: Right. So professional skill. I would really, uh, [00:36:00] like we were talking about it. I would really like to get better at managing people at training people. As I mentioned, I'm, you know, I'm relatively new at this and it's been a great journey, a great ride, and I'm really enjoying this, but I really want to get better.

Right. So that's, you know, that's a professional, uh, skill, something that I'm working on.  Personal skill. I mean, I think just keeping it together, right? Because, you know, we career women, we have a lot that is required of us, right? We have a lot of requests at work. We have a lot of requests at home. And for those of us who have children who are married that manage a household, it's a lot, right?

So just being able to,  to manage it all. And stay sane. That really is the key. And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, I personally feel very fortunate [00:37:00] because I have it all. And now the job is to make sure that,  it's all well balanced. So that's a personal struggle for me.

Hardeep Ranu: So, what parts of that do you find difficult?

Is it because work pulls you more or home pulls you more?

Ksenia Kastanenka: So I have a five year old daughter. And, you know, shortly after she was born, I thought, Oh, you know, the job, the career, the lab, I got that. That's going well. This is, this is fine. It's the, the child part, the raising the child part, because, you know,  that was the, the first child I had.

And this is the only daughter I have. And,  I was very new to this. I was really taken back at how much effort is required. And essentially, you know, my husband and I, we became responsible for this little individual. It was our job to keep her alive, to keep her well, to keep her educated. [00:38:00] And it was a lot.

So I was really struggling with with the child part, now that she grew up a little bit, I think it's become more manageable, which is, which is really great. But initially the first year or so, she was really dependent on us and my husband and I, and that was the time when I had to travel to a lot of conferences.

My lab was just starting out. I had to do a lot of grant review, a lot of writing grants, networking, giving talks. Traveling, it was just a lot. So I think, you know, managing all of those different things, you know, can be really challenging for somebody with a small child and was just starting out in their career.

Hardeep Ranu: So would you ever have considered staying home and putting your career on hold?

Ksenia Kastanenka: Right. So that's, you know, that's another, question I kind of had because I was always driven.  I knew I wanted to be a scientist from very early age. My mom is a science [00:39:00] teacher. So I was, I always gravitated towards science, towards neuroscience.

And that was the only thing I ever wanted to do. So then, when we got married and we were thinking about having children at that point, I thought, you know, how come,  I just didn't realize what it takes to raise a child. And I thought, you know, how come that we see a lot of women that, you know, have PhDs that highly successful, then go have children and quit science.

Or, you know, quit doing research, at the bench or decide that pursuing an academic career, running their own research lab is not for them, right? So I think until, you know, you have a child, if you're a woman, you don't realize how much juggling and how much effort is involved in raising, you know, a child and managing all of those other demands that come with a career.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, it's, you know, that's the reason why when you, the drop off in female or [00:40:00] women associate and professors and full professors that you see that drop off in the, in the percentage, you know, going from an instructor to assistant professor, let's say it's like 50 50. But as you go up the ladder to associate and full, the, the number of, the percentage of women goes down dramatically.

Ksenia Kastanenka: Right. And I think, you know, now there's a great effort,  from, you know, chairs from deans of departments to promote women, to provide women with the right opportunities so they're able to bridge that gap, right. You know, which is remarkable to see. Women are getting more support from the departments.  women are provided with, you know, with additional opportunities.

So for instance, you know, uh, grants just for women where only women can compete and, and things like that. So there are a lot of opportunities for women out there that are,  they're helping them. And I think, [00:41:00] you know, it goes back to what we talked about Hardeep. I think it's,  we need to get the right advice.

at the right time, right? So if you are a woman who is a postdoctoral fellow about to make that transition to, you know, running an independent lab and you do, you are married and you're having children or about to have children thinking about having children, it is possible to have it all. It is possible to do this.

You just need a plan. You need the right advice to do the right things at the right time to be able to bridge that gap. So I, you know, I don't want to discourage women. I think that,  more than ever women should be encouraged now because there are a lot of opportunities and a lot of people that are thinking and putting that, those thoughts into action of how to help women bridge that gap.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay, great. Is there anything else that you'd like to Say, you know, as we wrap up, you know, thank you for taking the time to do this. [00:42:00] It's been great, really, really, I find it so interesting doing these, how, how different each conversation is. So yeah, this is, this has been really wonderful for me.

Ksenia Kastanenka: Thank you so much for having me, Hardeep.

I am, I am really happy to participate in this and I hope that your listeners will get something out of this that,  will be really helpful and useful to them. And,  for those of you who have follow up questions, feel free to reach out to me.  again, it's Ksenia Kastanenka and I at Massachusetts General Hospital.

Oh, great.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay, great. And you have a website? Do you have a lab website? Yes,

Ksenia Kastanenka: I have a lab's website, Kastanenka Lab. I'm also on Twitter, on LinkedIn, and on Facebook. So feel free to reach out to me.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay, great. so much. Thanks.

Equilibrium Explorations: Insights on Meniere's Disease with Dr. Divya Chari

In this episode, join me in my conversation with Divya Chari, an assistant professor at Mass Eye and Ear, as she shares her journey as a female surgeon and mentor in the field of Otolaryngology as well as her research on Meniere’s Disease. Tune in to discover the impact of mentorship on personal and professional growth as Divya discusses her thoughts on guiding aspiring surgeons and researchers. 

Transcript:

Hardeep Ranu: [00:00:00] Hi, today I am here with assistant professor Divya Chari, who is a, an awardee in the Catalyst Translational Innovator Program, but I thought that she would be a great guest on this podcast because she has some really cool. things to share, and not only about her research, but some thoughts about being a clinician researcher.

So, Divya, do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself?

Divya Chari: Yes, I would love to. So hi everyone. My name is Divya Achari. As Hardeep mentioned, I am an assistant professor in otolaryngology. I split my time, so I'm in the department of otolaryngology head and neck surgery.  at UMass Memorial out in Worcester, Massachusetts, [00:01:00] and that's where my clinical practice primarily is.

And then I also have a research appointment. I had Massachusetts Eye and Ear and Harvard Medical School and have a research lab that's focused basically on the translational science of Meniere's disease at Massachusetts Eye and Ear. I did my residency training at the University of California, San Francisco,  and I finished that in 2019.

And then I did a fellowship in otology, neurotology, and skull base surgery at Mass Eye and Ear in Boston, and then have stayed on basically in Massachusetts, in the Boston area ever since then.

Hardeep Ranu: Great. And so do you want to talk about your research? And well, first of all, I want to ask you, how do you find it kind of going between UMass and Mass Eye and Ear?

You know, you, you're in two different places spending your time, but how, I mean, how is that in terms of your work and your research and getting, you know, [00:02:00] the logistics of it and operationalizing that as well? Cause I, I thought that was kind of. That's an interesting thing to be navigating as well.

Divya Chari: Yeah, that's a great question.

So this position is actually a little bit of an unusual position in that, you know, most of my clinical practice is at a different institution really than my research. There are a lot of benefits though to this situation. And I can chat a little bit about that. The first is that, you know, so I graduated from fellowship kind of in the height of the pandemic.

I was looking for jobs in January of 2020, and in January, you know, that was when I was in my first year of fellowship, January of 2020, there were a ton of jobs open, you know, everywhere I looked, it was like, you're a neurotologist, great, you're in high demand, here are all the jobs available, and then March of 2020 hit, and the pandemic, pandemic hit us, and all of a sudden, it was like looking into a desert, I mean, it was just all of these job prospects had totally [00:03:00] dried up, and there weren't a lot of really great opportunities.

I got really lucky in that UMass had been looking for a clinical otologist, neuro otologist for some time. They, UMass is, has the benefit of being in a very, very busy clinical area. It has a huge catchment area that includes a lot of New England, including parts of New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine. Rhode Island, as well as Central Massachusetts, and so it, there's just a huge need for, there was a huge need for an oncologist since they were looking pretty seriously at wanting to hire somebody.

I knew when I was in my fellowship that I was pretty interested in academics, I wanted to stay in the academic arena, and my research was very important to me, and my research is quite specific and requires a really You know, an infrastructure to be able to accomplish a lot of it. And so what I was able to set up, which was really great, was basically a clinical agreement at UMass where I'm able to have this really busy, very [00:04:00] fruitful, very interesting clinical practice along with joint agreement where I can basically spend my research time at Mass.

Engineer, which has a lot of the infrastructure and resources needed to be able to accomplish a lot of the work that I wanted to do. And so the benefit of a situation like that is that you're not asking one institution to do everything for you, right? A lot, this isn't always true, but it's often the case.

That the institution that has the best resources and research infrastructure doesn't necessarily have the best clinical volume for junior faculty. And you know, the place that has incredible clinical volume for somebody who's just starting out in their career may not be the place that has all of the infrastructure and the resources and the setup that you might need to like have a really productive and fruitful research career.

And so by combining these two places, I think I'm really able to get the best of both worlds. And, you know, I can really tap into a lot of the resources that Mount Sinai has to offer from the otopathology lab to, you know, you know, number of, you know, patients with very specific disease, processes, disorders.

A [00:05:00] lot of my mentors really are coming from Mount Sinai, my research mentors, I mean, are coming from Mount Sinai. And so I can, you know, use and ask for their help and resources. And that way, a lot of the equipment that we need from a research standpoint is located there. So that's been very helpful. And then the flip side, you know, where I spend a little over half my time is at UMass, you know, where I can have a really busy caseload and be seeing patients in the clinic.

Operating on these patients and surgically managing a lot of these diseases. So those are all the benefits of it. The downsides sort of come down to the logistics, which is that it's hard to split your time. And this, I think, the overarching issue is that it's, it's just hard to be a clinician scientist.

You always feel Like you're being pulled in two separate directions, right? There's all the clinical needs, which it's a full time job. You know, you can easily get sucked into that for 100 percent or more than 100 percent of your time because there's needs that patients have, that your staff have. You know, there's feels like there's always a need to see more patients and do more in the operating room and in clinic.

And then research is also, it feels like a full time job, right? It, I [00:06:00] mean, it, it is for many people and it can be, depending on how much time and effort you want to spend on it. And so it's, I think it can be hard to sort of almost. Split your brain into two and say, okay, I'm going to compartmentalize.

Today is going to be a day where I'm going to be in the operating room treating patients. And today is going to be a day when I'm going to be writing a grant proposal, or I'm going to be, you know, analyzing data. I think for me, ultimately, I love that. I love that split. I think it keeps everything fresh, you know, today, for example, I was in the operating room and it was a wonderful day.

I had such a great day. It was really fun, but I think. Knowing that, you know, in, you know, later this week, I'm going to have a day to kind of decompress and maybe do some writing and some creative thinking and, you know, think about some of the bigger research questions and the why behind what we do really keeps me going and like helps me have what I think of as like a fulfilling career.

So I think that's the underlying issue that it's just hard to split your time between being a clinician. And being a scientist, you know, for me personally, the logistics of having UMass and [00:07:00] MSI in here is that the biggest hurdle is really the distance between the two. And so, you know, one is located out in Worcester, which is 50 minutes to an hour outside of Boston.

The other is located in Boston proper. And so it's kind of the logistics of having to be wise with time management, spend time.  when I can in, you know, in one place and then have to really compartmentalize and be in a different location in a different frame of mind another day.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. So one of the things that I was interested in as you were talking was that this split between being a surgeon essentially and a researcher and one of the people I have spoken to is Anahita Duha, who is a vascular surgeon, and for her, it seemed like the surgery, What's her thing that that's where she gets in the zone, you know, she gets in that kind of that flow state that it's amazing when you do achieve it.

And I was just curious whether you feel the same way about when [00:08:00] you do surgery.

Divya Chari: Yes, I do. I,

Hardeep Ranu: well, I would, I would say yes, but with. I mean, it's okay if you don't, right? I mean, it's okay if you don't, but I was struck by that. But then, you know, you're talking about being a clinician scientist. You know, you're splitting this part of you in two, but it seems, it felt a bit different in the way you were describing it.

Divya Chari: Yeah, and maybe that's the difference of how I think about it or just how I, you know. Think about my role. I think I would say that I'm similar in that I definitely, you know, one of the things that I just love about being in the operating room is that you do get into that zone, right? I mean, it's just, for me, ear surgery is so delicate and so beautiful.

The anatomy is sort of so fascinating and there's just, it's true microsurgery, right? There's the smallest bone in the human body is the sapies bone. And so I think there's, to me, the reason I love ear surgery is that there's something so beautiful and incredible about being able to do the [00:09:00] exact same thing for ear surgery every single time, but every single case is a little bit different.

And so you can really get into this zone of like, this is what we want to do when we're dealing with chronic ear surgery, this is what we're doing, or we're doing a tumor section, this is what we're doing. And so in that sense, when you said this thing about like, you know, getting into the zone or into this flow stage, I totally identify with that.

I think that is absolutely what can happen and what often does happen and it's one of the things that I just love. I mean, one of the, this sounds a little funky to say, but one of the best things about being a surgeon is that there are a few things in, in, a few jobs. Where you get so into it that you're completely disconnected from everything else.

And that's what happens in the operating room, right? I mean, I am totally, you know, yes, I have my phone and it's there and people can reach me in an emergency, perhaps. But for the most part, it's on silent, right? And so you can't get a hold of me if I'm in the operating room. There are no distractions.

There's nothing else. It's just sort of the patient, the procedure, the thing right in front of you. And I think for me that I love that [00:10:00] part of my job. The part where I would say I disagree or maybe, or I'm a little bit different maybe, is that for me, even though I love that part of my life, I also love other parts, right?

So it's this idea of like, you know, I don't necessarily want to have a life where I'm in the operating room five days a week, you know? I, that doesn't necessarily make me super happy. Like, I love the fact that I also get to see patients in clinic, talk to them before surgery, talk to them after surgery, see how they do, see the impact of what I've done.

And then on top of that, I love being able to sort of disconnect completely from the clinical side of things and think about the bigger picture or the why that we might be doing something or how we can potentially improve the standard of care, you know, and I think that's what research allows me to do.

It allows me to take a step back and say, Hey, there's something bigger. Then just the patient in front of me there, you know, we can potentially affect a lot of patients lives through work that we might do. And so that I think is where I feel like this, there's this little bit [00:11:00] of this brain split and I love both sides of it.

The other piece of this, which I'll say is I think doing the clinical piece of it really allows me to inform my research and vice versa. I feel, you know, I feel like doing the research. helps me become a better clinician. And I think that's kind of, that feels important to me, you know.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. I mean, as you were talking, it seemed also that when you said, you know, you like to have that research day or that day when, when you're focused on.

The creative side of the research and thinking and writing and what comes next and how to, you know, kind of put it together was something that I thought, for me, it seemed to me that you lit up when you were talking about that.

Divya Chari: Yeah, absolutely. Which, which is I think what keeps me going with it, right?

Because otherwise. There isn't, you know, there isn't a lot of incentive, I think, unfortunately, to try to do both. It's, it's hard to do both. [00:12:00] There's a lot of reasons to not. There's a lot of reasons to focus solely on research, or from, in my case, really solely on clinical, you know, side of things. Because, you know, for most people, that's where A lot of the incentives are that's where salaries and that's where you can really, you know, also affect a lot of change, like, and you can do a lot of good in a really short and quick way, you know, that's not often not how research is research takes a really long time to get anywhere.

And so I think for me, at least there has to be something else about it that keeps me going. to keep me interested in research. And for me, there's a couple of things. One is the teaching aspect of it. I really enjoy that. I keep, you know, I find it interesting. I find it fun. I find it enjoyable. But the other piece of it is this, again, like I was saying, this creative side of it, you know, being able to sit down and say, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to write, or I'm going to read, or I'm going to think, and that's going to help me be a better clinician, a better researcher, all these different things.

Hardeep Ranu: So, you know, we're talking about research. Do you want to talk [00:13:00] a bit about your research that, you know, you've been funded through Catalyst,  the, the things that you're looking at, and, The really cool piece of equipment platform that gave me bad motion sickness when I came to Chesterville, but it was fun, nevertheless.

Divya Chari: Absolutely. So our lab is really focused on looking at Meniere's disease. So Meniere's disease is a really challenging problem of the inner ear. It's a chronic degenerative disorder. That causes fluctuations in hearing and episodes of vertigo, but it's ultimately a degenerative process in which the ear ultimately loses function.

The ear does two things. It does hearing and it does balance. And so losing those two things mean that people can be left with severe to profound hearing loss and with no balance function in that ear. It is a debilitating disorder and unfortunately there's just not a lot that we understand about it both in terms of the pathophysiology, [00:14:00] meaning the underlying, underpinnings of the disease process, the genetic etiology, and also, you know, really good, we don't have really good ways to treat it.

A lot of the ways that we have to treat it in a definitive way are to really ablate or kind of kill off the ear. Which aren't really great things. You know, the analogy is like somebody comes in with a paper cut and you say, well, I can solve your problem by cutting off your finger. It's like, okay, yeah, I guess that would solve this problem, but it's not like that really solves the problem.

So you're not really getting at the underlying root cause. And so our lab is focused on trying to, you know, work on Meniere's disease in a couple of different ways. One is by trying to understand which parts of the inner ear are most affected and trying to differentiate it from another disorder that is very similar, presents in a very similar way clinically, which is a disease called vestibular migraine.

And so to do this, we put people in a really special machine. That moves them up and down, or side to side, or tilts them. [00:15:00] It's sort of like a fancy rotator machine, if you can imagine that. And by doing that, we then have them respond and say which way they think they moved. And that gives us information about which organ or organs are affected in the inner ear.

And that can help us to differentiate one disease from another. Another piece in our lab is to look at imaging. So we do really, really high resolution MRI scans of the inner ear with contrast. For That allow us to look at tiny structures in the inner ear that can help us differentiate things about Meniere's disease and identify what stage somebody might be in or how affected they are, and we're hoping to be able to use those for different treatments and, you know, understand the progression of the disease.

And then the final aspect of my lab is really to look at some of the genetics of Meniere's disease and try to understand some of the underpinnings of the disease process. And so we're trying to subdivide Meniere's disease into different categories and using imaging, using genetics, using, you know, blood tests, different kinds of things like that to try and [00:16:00] understand why different people, you know, there can be 10 different people with Meniere's disease, but they can all behave in 10 different ways.

And so we want to understand what different etiologies can do. And what different subtypes of Meniere's disease there can be.

Hardeep Ranu: So, with Meniere's disease, it's specifically in the inner ear versus vestibular being like a central nervous system that sort of starts off in, in your brain. So this is a really silly question.

With Meniere's disease, can you give, I mean, really this is a very silly question, but can you give like a cortisone shot or a something like that kind of, you know, or like, I don't know, painkilling thing, does it do anything like That work?

Divya Chari: That's actually not a silly question at all. That is one of the treatments for meniere's disease.

So we do dexamethasone injections into the ear. So the ear consists of the external ear canal, the middle [00:17:00] ear space, and then the inner ear. Meniere's disease is a problem of the inner ear. It's a problem of the cochlea and the vestibular end organs or the balance end organs of the inner ear. And so we can inject steroid or dexamethasone through the ear drum, so it sits in the middle ear space.

And diffuses, naphthalene diffuses through what's called the round window to get into the inner ear. That is a, is actually a well established treatment of Meniere's disease. It's something I use really frequently. The idea is maybe we're decreasing some of the inflammation of the inner ear. To be honest, the mechanism by which that works is really kind of unknown.

We don't know. And that's true for a lot of uses for steroids, like steroid injections that go into, you know, inflammatory conditions of joints or things like that.  we don't fully understand exactly what the mechanism is and we certainly don't from Meniere's disease about like exactly why that helps.

But it does seem to help. It doesn't help in everybody, but it helps in about, in my practice, in about half of patients. That's a great question. Does it last? How long does it last? It, it really varies. If it [00:18:00] works, it can last, you know, days, months, weeks, you know, maybe even years. But it, it, it, it's not like, oh, it's not like somebody can come in and I say, oh, we're new.

Dexamethasone injection. You're going to be good for six months. It really, the disease is so variable that we just kind of treat it as it comes.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay, and so then is it the same as, you know, getting a cortisone shot in one of the joints that you get, like, two or three lifetime kind of thing?

Divya Chari: Well, you can get it as many times as you would like.

So I have some patients who, you know, have it a lot of times, have had it 10, 15 times, let's say. But most people, if their vertigo symptoms are severe enough, And the dexamethasone just isn't doing the trick, then we start escalating treatment. So we kind of, we don't continue that indefinitely unless it seems to be providing some benefit.

But it's pretty well tolerated. I mean, we just do a little drop of numbing medication on the eardrum, which stings for a moment, but then goes away. And then as the fluid goes in, people feel a little bit [00:19:00] dizzy, but otherwise it's very well tolerated. It's a single procedure. It's done right in the clinic.

They go home that same day. You know, the whole thing takes maybe 10 minutes and they can go about their, you know, they can go back to work. So it's not, you know, particularly invasive or anything like that.

Hardeep Ranu: So it isn't that you have this. Many a disease and you're like, that's it, you know, there's no, there's nothing you can do about it.

There, there is some things, some things that can be done about it.

Divya Chari: Absolutely treatable. The problem is the treat, you know, we, we, I think of it sort of like a ladder treatment, okay? We start with the least invasive down here and then we gradually work our way up. The problem with the most invasive things is that like, like that paper cut analogy, right?

We're like killing or ablating the ear. So removing function, it means that people have a high risk of hearing loss with some of those more intense treatments and they lose balance function in that ear. So they have to, you know, relearn how to compensate for that loss of balance function using their other ear, their eyes, [00:20:00] their brain, other types of balance organs.

But So that's the problem with the treatments that we have, that they're not very targeted, but they can work really well. I mean, we have a pretty good high rate of getting rid of vertigo. I would say 95 to 99 percent of patients, we get rid of the vertigo eventually.

Hardeep Ranu: So, yeah. So, that's how you sort of

Divya Chari: There's always, well, difficult disease.

It's, it's a chronic disease process, but it's, it's treatable.

Hardeep Ranu: Kind of like, you know, if we go to your paper cut analogy, you know, it's sort of a bit like, you know, you have a paper cut, it's sort of annoyingly painful and you put a bandaid on it because you know, you. do something and you, I'm just going to say squeeze a lemon or something like that, and it's going to sting.

And then, but when you put the bandaid on, you lose sensation in, in that finger and you kind of like now can't, you know, it, it gets in the way of the, of the, it's like I was squeezing a lemon. It sort of, you know, [00:21:00] And I guess that, you know, if you want to keep on going, it would get even more annoying to be able to squeeze the lemon with this paper, you know, if you take it all the way to like chopping off your finger.

You know, now, now you've, you've lost that finger for the,  and the dexterity of being able to squeeze that lemon, it is.

Divya Chari: Exactly right. Yeah, that's a great, great point. Yeah. So it makes squeezing the lemon really difficult and in the same way, like, you lose your hearing function, you lose your balance function in that ear.

Can you compensate for it? Can you figure out how to squeeze a lemon without a finger? Yeah, for sure, you can. It's just harder. So, in our hope with finding better treatments and being able to diagnose Meniere's disease better is maybe we can find more tailored treatments for it.

Hardeep Ranu: And sort of going to the genetic side of things, you know, is there a genetic component to this?

Divya Chari: So we don't, we don't know. That's like one of the big questions that we have is, is there a genetic component to Meniere's disease? We, in, in our [00:22:00] lab, we, we suspect that at least one subtype of Meniere's disease may have some genetic component to it. There seems to be some promising data to suggest that there are a subpopulation of Meniere's patients who tend to have very severe disease.

It tends to be bilateral, meaning occurring in both ears. And they seem to have some characteristic imaging findings that maybe have a genetic underlying, you know, association. There's no known gene for Meniere's disease, so it's not like there's a particular gene that gets inactivated or has some problem that we know of.

But I think the fact that we can identify this subgroup of patients clinically that are very similar is promising. for saying so. One of the projects that we have is to really dig into this particular subgroup and try and see, can we identify some genetic underpinnings of this disease?

Hardeep Ranu: Cool. And so I want to kind of change track a little bit away from your research, but sort [00:23:00] of as a sort of relatively junior investigator, you know, you talked about your mentors in terms of research and.

You know, most of the people I've had

on here have been,

they have well established labs. They have postdocs, students, undergrads come through and they are mentors to these people. And so they have told me what it's like for them to be a mentor or what they do. But, you know, on your side of things, what, what would you like to see in a, in a mentor?

You know, if we were gonna talk to those senior people as a junior person, what, what, what do you, who's your ideal mentor or how, how would they, you know, act?

Divya Chari: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a great question. So the first thing I'll say about that is, you know, being in medicine is sort of a, it's, it's an unusual path in that it's what I, my career path has [00:24:00] been very long thus far, right?

So, you know, the, the, I've had many mentors over my career. And even though my life as an attending has been fairly short, I'm only two years in, you know, I've been a student and a mentee and a trainee for a very long time. And so, you know, I think I've had mentors dating back to being in medical school and residency and fellowship.

And even now as a, you know, more junior faculty, I have people who are, I consider mentors. And I think the, the challenges at different points or stages in your career trajectory, you sort of need and look for different things in a mentor. In general, what I will say is this. In general, in a mentor, what I really look for and what I found to be very helpful, And what I hopefully try to be now as, you know, becoming a mentor for students and medical students and things like that and residents, is that number one, I want to be available.

That's, I think, one of the most important things. The second thing is I really try to make it, or I like [00:25:00] when it is, a collaborative process. You know, I think when mentors approach the process of mentoring by really thinking about how can they further and help a student's career, And what can they provide?

That's when it can become a really fruitful relationship. There are lots of mentors out there, you know, who are really interested in furthering their own research goals or their own agendas. And sometimes that can be mutually beneficial. Sometimes you both get what you want out of it, but I think some of the best mentors are people who really are trying to help you create the best, best research paths for yourself and help you establish.

What you want to get out of your research. And so those would be the two things. You know, I think the, it changes a little bit, right? So the oversight that you need as a medical student, for example, and a mentor is much more than somebody like me now, where I'm, you know, I have my own lab and the kind of mentorship that I want and look for is kind of the big picture, like how do I think about something, you know, where should I go next, what are kind of the big picture [00:26:00] ideas that's helpful to bounce.

Ideas off of somebody, but as a medical student, the kind of mentorship that you're really looking for is really somebody who has concrete ideas, who understands what you're able to tackle at that stage of your training and can kind of package something for you nicely. And allow you to take that on and really take ownership of it.

I also think that one of the big things about being a mentor and person is it's also, so this is changing from research track really to the clinical side of things because I think a big part of mentorship happens on the clinical side of things, at least in my life. And I've had a lot of really great clinical mentors who just are able to kind of teach and guide and like.

Open my eyes to something so interesting. And I think they've done that in a couple of ways. One is that they're excited and interested in what they do. And I think that shines through and it helps me get there. It helps students want to do what you're doing because you're so excited about what you're doing.

So that's number [00:27:00] one. The second thing is really being open enough to let. students into your thought process and your way of thinking and your sort of reasoning. You know, it's hard to do because not everybody is at the same. stage in their training, but I find that the best training I've had from especially mentors in residency and fellowship have been the mentors who allow me to see when they are unsure when they're trying to make a decision and they're not quite sure what the right answer is or when they have made a decision, but they talk me through what their reasoning is and that's where I've often learned the most.

And so I try to do a lot of that now when I have medical students or residents or fellows in my room, you know, I try to talk to them a lot about like, All right, so this is my decision making process. This is why we landed here. This is what I'm thinking I want to do next. And kind of talk them through that process, because I think that really helps whether their education or at least it did for me.

And it really helps me, you know, I think what, where it's really helped me is now being in attending, there have been [00:28:00] so many moments where I've, you know, had moments of doubt and I've said, Oh man, like, what should I do? Like, I wish there were just somebody in the room that I could turn to and kind of knowing or having the back of my head that like,   everybody has those moments.

And you just have to think through it, like think through it logically. What would you do next? What do you want to do next? Like, how do you want to reason through this is really helpful. And so I think that's what I try to impart to my students. And that's what I think fantastic mentors have done for me.

Great.

Hardeep Ranu: As you were talking, something sort of popped into my head that in the world, in the, in your field, because this is a, it's a joint committee on the status of women, and it's about furthering the careers.  women in medicine, in science, and, you know, Stanford, the medical school. One of the things that kind of popped into my mind was in your field, what is the ratio of male to female?

You know, cause like, like I said, with my, with the person who I had talked to [00:29:00] in one of the earlier ones. She's a vascular surgeon and it's a heavily male dominated field. And so, you know, she talked a little bit about that, but I was just curious about in your area, how, how does it look? Yeah.

Divya Chari: So surgery in general tends to be a male dominated field.

That is absolutely true and it's true across the board. Otolaryngology or ENT, which is my field, tends to be a little bit more female friendly. Okay. than vascular surgery, for example. I, the latest numbers that I've seen are something like 60 40, so actually more women than men, or at least half. Now in terms of trainees, not in terms of all otolaryngologists, but in terms of trainees, there tend to be more female trainee otolaryngologists than male trainees.

In terms of, you know, practicing otolaryngologist, it's still more heavily men, but, you know, I think there is still a culture of, you know, surgery and being in the operating room really [00:30:00] being a kind of a male dominated field. That's just how it has been traditionally. A lot of that's changing, but, but that's just how it's been.

I think where I really noticed it or really thought about it was not so much actually in residency or fellowship. That, those were places where. You know, being a woman didn't, wasn't really something that necessarily crossed my mind all that much or really was something that I thought of or really seemed to be so much of a day to day thing.

Where I think I've really started to notice differences is actually now being in attending. And I think there are different hurdles and challenges that women often encounter in the operating room, in the clinic, with patients, and just sort of like the progression of kind of what's expected that's a little bit different from residency and fellowship.

So I think that, you know, that's where I really noticed some changes and it's been, it's a little challenging sometimes to navigate some of those things. I think. You know, it's certainly not, you know, when we think about sexism in the workplace and we think about challenges that women [00:31:00] face, I think things are a lot better now, for example, than they were even 20, 30, 40 years ago, of course.

But I think there's still room to go. I think we have growth in a lot of those areas for sure. And

Hardeep Ranu: what about as a woman of color? Any thoughts on that as, you know, as well?

Divya Chari: Absolutely. I think, so I am a woman of color and I think that. There are always challenges with being a woman and a woman of color, in the operating room especially, and outside of the operating room, and, you know, in terms of seeing patients and Having staff and things like that, you know, there have been some really interesting studies about this and how people, so for example, people have looked at like referral patterns to female surgeons, right?

And there was a really great study that came out of Stanford that looked at how people referred to general surgery females and if there was a complication. And if there was a complication, regardless of the surgeon's gender or sex, [00:32:00] the, the referrals generally dropped across the board. But they dropped not by that much if the surgeon was a man.

If the surgeon was a woman, they tended to drop a lot and the drop was sustained, meaning that the referral stayed low for a long time. And I think about that because that's always a fear of mine, right? It's like, you know, we do risky things in surgery, bad things can happen. And the question is, how do people see it?

Do they see it? Like, oh, that was just a bad day, or that was a one off, or that was just an anomaly, or is it, oh, that's a pattern, that's somebody I don't want to refer to, I don't want to keep sending patients to that person because I don't think they're actually a good surgeon. And so I do think there are maybe some challenges that women and women in color face in terms of just sort of biases and in terms of referrals, which is where a lot of our volume comes from and things like that.

But I think, you know, the flip side of all that I'll say is that I, I also think that It's important to have [00:33:00] representation. I think it's important for patients that we see representation, right? That we see women, that we see women of color and that we, that we increase the number of people who are providing different types of care because I think different patients want and need different things.

And I think having that diversity is, is a really good thing.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. For sure. I mean, we, we do not want a world. Well, all white men, especially, but now, but you know, a world full of. Lots of different people is, is, is so much better just for, for, for many different reasons. So, so one of the things that you had spoken about is, is this sort of challenge of being a researcher and a surgeon and a clinician.

And like, if you could say to whoever would be listening, you could like grant your wishes. You [00:34:00] know, what, what would that, what would it look like to, to have a good balance? You know, how, how would you get that balance, I guess?

Divya Chari: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think a lot of it has to do with what sort of infrastructure you're able to create and develop in place.

Right. So I think on the clinical side, you know, balance is a lot easier when you have a team of people behind you, supporting you and helping you get somewhere. Right. And that's where, and the same is true for research. Right. Right. Like. It's a lot easier to run a research lab when you have, you know, multiple postdocs and people and it sort of becomes a little bit self sustaining.

It's not, you know, your research is not driven just by you. It's driven by lots of people. And so it becomes a little bit easier to be, you know, the person who's kind of overseeing multiple things compared to doing some of the work yourself and, you know, the day to day. Now, there are challenges with being a manager in itself and challenges with, you know, overseeing work and it requires a lot of responsibility and a lot of [00:35:00] time as well.

But I think that that's where some of those things can become a little bit more self sustaining and they can become more doable. You know, going back a little bit to that question of like, you know, being a woman and a woman of color is, you know, one of the challenges that I see is that it's hard to sometimes convince people that you are the person they should follow or that you can be a leader.

And I think that's, you know, what I see. I see this in a lot of my peers. I see this in some of my mentors. But I think the people who are most successful are the people who can outline a vision for what they want and. Like, get people to buy into that vision so that they want to follow that person. They want to say, yeah, this is a person I want to hitch my wagon to because they seem like they're going places and I know that working for them or working with them is going to be mutually beneficial.

And I think, you know, sometimes those biases can be challenging. It can be hard sometimes. When you don't look like what somebody might, you know, see as [00:36:00] like a leader or you don't seem like somebody that they're saying, Oh yeah, this person's really going to go somewhere. And so you kind of have to convince people that like, yeah, no, I really am here for the right, you know, I'm really going to do great things and you should join me because I do have a vision for what should happen.

And I think that's where, you know, the mentors that I've worked with and the people that I've worked with who have really been successful have had a really clear vision and been able to convince people that they can do that. And that becomes self fulfilling too, right? The more that you can convince great people that you are going to do great things, the more that great people are going to work with you and you really are going to surround yourself with a team that's going to be fantastic.

And so I think that's one of the things that I think is probably the most, probably the keys to success, I think.

Hardeep Ranu: What's your call to action, let's say, you know, about, you know, having people join you in, in your lab or, you know.

Divya Chari: Well, my call to action would be simply and. Talking about what it is that we're going to do, you know, how are we going to change the world of Meniere's disease?

And I, I think we have some really exciting and fun things that we have [00:37:00] ahead. And I think there's so many different avenues that we can go. The other thing I'll say is that I hope and I want to be the type of person and the mentor and the, and the advisor that is available, that, that cares about the whole person, right?

You know, that's one of the things that I think is so important. It's like, you know, going back to that mentor who's sort of like, yeah, I'm just in it so that you'll do some work for me for a few months or a year or a couple years, you know, we'll get some papers out of it and then you go about your business.

Like, no, I want to help you develop your career wherever that's where you want to go, you know, for medical students. It's often getting into residency, you know, residence is getting into fellowship or developing whatever niche that you need to develop so that you can be successful in your career and you can kind of further your own goals.

And I think really diving into what it is that that individual is looking for and helping them, sometimes part of it is just helping them articulate what it is that they want, right? A lot of people come to me, I have a lot of students who reach out to me and say, you know, can I work with you on research?[00:38:00]

You know, they, they want to work with, on research because they've been told, like, that's what they're supposed to do. They have to do research to get into medical school or to get into residency. And I think helping them articulate what it is that they're looking for, what they want to get out of the experience, is sometimes just as important and helps them kind of become A stronger, like person, a stronger candidate, you know, all these different things.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. What you're saying really resonates with what the others who I've spoken to about being mentors is that it's about kind of guiding these postdocs, graduate students through so that they are then successful in their next, for their next position is, is really how they viewed being a mentor. So as I'm kind of.

Get close to the end of this great conversation. There are two questions that I always ask. One is, one, what is one professional skill? It can be more than one professional skill that you're working on. And what is one more than one personal skill that you're working [00:39:00] on?

Divya Chari: Oh, great question. Okay. So I would say the professional skill that I'm still working on is probably grant writing.

You know, it's, it's hard to write grants. And so I would say that is a skill that I am working on. You know, it's, it's funny because it's also humbling. You know, I came in thinking like, I'm a pretty good writer. I know how to write and I'm good. And, you know, I can do all these things and things like that.

And, you know, having grants not accepted, which I've certainly had my fair share of, having them destroyed and rewritten by people and sort of said, no, no, you're not writing clearly. You need to do this differently, really has been eye opening. And so I think that is definitely something I am still working on.

And hopefully we'll continue to improve on, I think, you know, you, every time you do a new iteration of a grant or a submission or things like that, you get better and better and better. And so I think that it's a process. So that would be the professional skill. The personal skill, I would say that I'm working on is really, you know, I think, you know, I was talking about kind of the, the mentorship piece of it and really [00:40:00] caring about where somebody's coming from.

I think one of the things that I'm really trying to do as a mentor for medical students and for people in my lab and people that I work with is really trying to exercise a lot of patience. And sometimes what I've discovered, because I, I have the tendency to want to jump in, right? I want to jump in. I want to help out.

I want to make things better. I want to rewrite the paper with you. I want to like help you get to the next thing. I want to answer the question for you. And sometimes I think the best thing you can do is to sit back and say, you can do this. I'm here to support, but you got to figure this out. And I don't do a lot.

I think I need to work on that. You know, it requires a lot of patience and it just requires Kind of, you know, instilling that courage in somebody to say, you can do this, but like, you're going to do this yourself. And I think that, that kind of patience is something I need to work on.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, I have a,  post it note up here.

I mean, it's not, it says it's got the acronym WAIT. Yeah. Oh. And it's why am I talking? [00:41:00]

Divya Chari: Yes, exactly.

Hardeep Ranu: So, so, so I have that up here. So to remind me. So

Divya Chari: the flip of that is, you know, I think it's normal, or it's, it's often the, the flip from going from a trainee or,  you know,   graduate student or things, something like that, where you, you're eager and you want to have the right answer and you want to push, push, push.

And sometimes I think the flip of like helping somebody or mentoring somebody is kind of taking a step back and saying like, let them think through this, let them. figure it out too. And I think that's the, you know, that's part of the wait part, right? It's like jumping in to be like, yeah, I'm so eager and here's what we can do next.

And like, maybe let's not do that. Let's let them come up with ideas because maybe they have great ideas, you know, let's let that happen. Right.

Hardeep Ranu: And so what are, what do you do for fun outside of all of this, this incredible work you're doing and, you know, running back and forth [00:42:00] between Worcester and Boston, you know,

Divya Chari: Yes, absolutely.

So I love hiking. We, we, we're a family of hikers. I have a two and a half year old daughter and a little mini Aussie dog, and so, and my husband, so the, you know, we all go on these really great hikes all the time. We're actually going to Zion National Park in a few weeks, so we're going to do some hiking there, so that's a lot of fun.

I play the violin, actually. I've played the violin for a long time, and so that's something that I use to decompress, and have fun with, and things like that. And then I have a nasty addiction to reality TV shows, and I gotta tell you, I am so up to date on it, it is embarrassing. But,  but yeah, so those are the things I like to do for fun.

I mean, you know, I, I have to tell you, I never necessarily, I didn't necessarily think that we were going to end up in Massachusetts. It sort of happened by circumstance and luck and all these great things, but we've loved it. I mean, I absolutely love Massachusetts. I think there's so many fun things to do.

We go to the museum all the time. We go out to eat all the time. [00:43:00] That's one of my favorite things to do is to go out to nice restaurants and explore and things like that. So have a nice glass of wine. So. It's been fantastic. I can't say that I'm lacking. I, I, it's, it's been great.

Hardeep Ranu: No, it sounds great. Thanks, Divya.

This has been great. So much fun getting to know you and getting to hear about, you know, the work that you do and, and the clinical side of things, which is not something we get to talk about in our, our other work.

Divya Chari: Yeah, no, this has been so fantastic. It's always a pleasure to speak with you. So thank you.

Thanks for having me on the podcast too.

Healing Healers: Strategies for Physician Well-being

In this episode, Dr. Ashwini Nadkarni, an Instructor of Psychiatry at Brigham and Women's Hospital, shares her expertise in wellness and physician burnout. We discuss her research in the area of physician burnout in women, explore the concept of cognitive load, and discuss the gender disparities in cognitive and emotional labor within the medical field. Even if you're not a physician, the discussion is relevant to anyone who is experiencing that feeling of burnout.

Tips include - taking vacation, not checking your email, a CBT guide to weaning yourself of checking email out of hours, and keeping a document that has a list of compliments that people have given you.

Invisible Women - the book that I mention in the episode

Transcript:

Hardeep Ranu: [00:00:00] Okay. So hi. Today I am joined by Dr. Ashwin i Nadkarni, and she is a psychiatrist and an instructor at the Brigham. And so, Ashwini, do you wanna go ahead and introduce yourself?

Ashwini Nadkarni: Sure. Thanks for having me, Hardeep. I am a psychiatrist at Brigham Women's Hospital, an instructor at Harvard Medical School, and I have two leadership roles in my department.

I'm the Assistant Medical Director of Brigham Psychiatric Specialties Group, which is our outpatient division, and the associate vice chair for wellness. So I work really closely with our faculty affairs team on programs, resources, and supports to enhance professional wellbeing for everybody in our department.

Hardeep Ranu: So one thing that came to mind just as you were giving your introduction, you know, in terms of wellness and [00:01:00] your patience, like how does that kind of. Get combined at all in when you are seeing your patients as well as in your professional life in terms of the wellness of fellow physicians and faculty in your department and beyond.

I mean, how do those two kind of. Crossover.

Ashwini Nadkarni: Yeah. When I think about wellness, I think that there are so many dimensions to that word. I think in our culture that word can conjure up references to celebrities who tout various vitamins or acupuncture or alternative health treatments as adjuncts to allopathic medicine.

I think it also has this dimension that relates to our mental health. And finally it has this dimension that relates to professional wellbeing, which is this area I focus on. So with my [00:02:00] patients, all three of those really come together. In evaluations and in treatment. Although I don't consider myself an expertise and alternative health, I feel very fortunate to be able to work with colleagues at the Brigham who are located at the Osher Center and often, you know, will suggest to my patients opportunities to consider alternative health treatments for depression or anxiety, or any variety of psychiatric conditions.

When it comes to mental health, I feel so privileged to be in this area of work. You know, our mental health has never been, I think, a bigger part of the conversation since Covid started, because what we've seen with the pandemic is this massive epidemic of loneliness. Right? And so, more than ever, I think mental health is in demand.

And you know, exploring that with patients is, I think a really rewarding [00:03:00] experience. Then there's this piece of occupational burnout. A lot of my patients bring that to care because work has. Been really stressful. We're seeing the impact of what we call the great resignation, right? I think it was said in 2021 that 4.1 million Americans resigned from their jobs.

I think that there is an article in the New York Times about that. And it makes sense, right? Nothing makes you reevaluate your values and decide to do something totally different with your life than being in lockdown for three to six straight months. And after that, seeing a complete shift in how we live our day-to-day lives, as far as how that dovetails with this work in in my department.

What we've realized about occupational burnout is that it has three different elements, and I'm referring here to a conceptualization of occupational burnout that comes from the research work of experts at [00:04:00] Stanford. There is an element that has to do with operational efficiency and the systems that we're working in, right?

The processes and the resources that we have available to provide the best patient care and be set up for success in her jobs. There's an element that has to do with individual resilience and our ability to get a good night's sleep. Our mental health is a key piece of that in our hospital. We have a rapid access faculty and trainee mental health program, as well as an employee mental health program, both of which are led by very talented colleagues that I work with and are focused on.

Addressing and assessing psychiatric disorders in my colleagues and, and the staff in our hospital. And then lastly, there's this concept of a culture of wellness that makes up that for Stanford framework that has to do with attitudes, the beliefs and the language that we use in. An organization that [00:05:00] do promote that sense of professional fulfillment and wellbeing.

So I think what's interesting in this space is how very much You know, the experiences that we're having at work in the space of medicine are so consonant with experiences that people are having out there in this country and, and which my patients bring to care. You know, there was very much the sense of you know, a parallel experience with the pandemic.

And I think that that was really brought into focus for me, particularly in the past few years.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay. And, and so this sort of physician burnout, that's your area of expertise or where you are focusing on, and you've had a couple of papers published in jama. Recently. And so do you wanna talk about those?

Ashwini Nadkarni:

Yeah,

 so that paper addresses this concept of [00:06:00] cognitive load and gender disparities and cognitive load and something we call emotional labor.

So cognitive load is the amount of working memory that's needed to attend to any cognitive tasks that require your attention. At any one point in time and emotional labor is the management of these emotional reactions and processes that can happen whether they're taking place in the workplace or your home.

And this paper came together because a colleague and I. We're discussing what things were like for us at home. Sometimes when I get home from work, I'll see, you know, the backpacks lying around and the cookie crumbs on the rock and, you know, my husband will will have cooked dinner, but everything is lying around and in my head is, you know, the All of the workload that I have to complete that night on Epic.

All the papers and projects that I'm working on, but [00:07:00] also, you know, the summer camp plans and the vaccinations and it's all there. It's all in my head. And I had this moment when I was talking to this colleague where we both said at the same time, wow, this is an issue. Right. It's not just about the workload at home, but also what's going on inside your head that takes up so much attention that can really keep you from focusing that you feel like is causing your work in memory to diminish and hold it all in and manage it.

And we began to explore this issue together. And research it. And we found some really interesting data out there. So this colleague of mine, her name is Dr. Jill Biswas, and she's a forensic psychiatrist and somebody I really enjoy working with in our department. But we were researching this and came across some fantastic data out there.

A colleague of mine, Dr. Eve Rittenberg, who works in primary care, had researched. This idea that women [00:08:00] physicians receive a greater volume of staff messages in their inboxes in the electronic medical record. Those messages are not only coming from patients, but they're also coming from staff. And what they concluded in a paper that they published was that, you know, cultural factors may have to do with this, right?

Sociopolitical cultural factors we have to do with this. There are gendered expectations of women physicians. Patient-centered care is something that is expected of all of us, and that's the idea that we spend the time necessary to care for our patients as a whole and address the Psychosocial issues that may be impacting their medical health and care.

What she noticed though is that, you know, patients may have gendered expectations like that particularly of women. They may be sending more staff messages and also those gendered expectations may be there in the workplace as well. So we talk about how some of that cognitive load is due to What's happening with the [00:09:00] workload of the E emr?

There's some interesting data out there too that shows that administrative workload is higher among women and a lot of, you know, media attention on this. We think about, you know, who gets asked to do what. In the workplace, right? And that concept of non-pro promotable work, it is the case that women can be asked to do that more often.

So if you're asked to plan a party or you know, comfort a colleague, it's oftentimes women who are approached to do those jobs. But the challenge is if it's non-pro promotable work, it can really impact professional equity for gender. So we explore that at length in the article

Hardeep Ranu: and. What were your findings really in, in that article and what kind of suggestions do you have for, for women who are feeling this way, which I would imagine it's a, it's a lot of women.

Yeah, [00:10:00] this way. I, I was reading, I had just started reading actually this book called Invisible Women and I can't, remember the last name of the author. But one of the things that she says is that, When women go and let's say, drop the kids off at wherever at a, an event or, or a sports fixture, whatever, that a lot of times what they'll do is they'll sort of do add-on trips, you know, to, to To like make it more efficient, and that's something that I noticed that I do.

I hadn't ever actually sort of paid attention to it. Sort of like when I dropped my daughter off at a crew practice on the way back, I was like, oh, well on the way back I'll just go, I'll go to the grocery store. And I'll come back and it was, it's sort of this thing where women will do that kind of [00:11:00] add-on and errand.

Mm-hmm.

Ashwini Nadkarni: Yes. Mm-hmm. Anticipate needs, make decisions, take accountability for all of that extra work. I think that that's what you're describing. That's a great point. You know, one of the findings from this viewpoint was that we came across an article on JAMA that was published and. Examine data of how household chores were handled during covid between women and men physicians.

And they found that women physicians were the ones likely to take on those household tasks and chores, and men were not, you know, and they were, they had to make sacrifices in their jobs to take on those tasks. So to account for that those gender disparities, one of the framework shifts that we suggest is to not put that additional burden on women to account for it.

To think about how we can come up with changes that our systems can [00:12:00] make if we have the data to validate that women are more likely to receive. More staff messages on the electronic medical record. How can we come up with more administrative resources, right? How can we add to team-based care to shift that load from women physicians onto supporting clinicians.

So that's one recommendation that we have. Another recommendation is to. Reinforce support for mentorship programs. Mentorship is such a fantastic way to help support careers and advance women's careers, but also help them reconceptualize, you know, the workplace. Oftentimes when you come into a workplace, you feel a lot of pressure to say yes to things.

You know, somebody in an authority figure says, can you do X? Can you do Y? Can you help? Z? You think to yourself, of course I'll do [00:13:00] that. How do you learn those skills? In saying no in a professional way of setting boundaries or even asking for help, a lot of that is achieved through mentorship, which I think of as.

A way to get insider information from people who are familiar with the culture of an organization, who understand other individuals and teams and in a department and can help you navigate those complex dynamics and help you learn those skills. Leadership programs are also really useful for that. I had the privilege of participating in a number of fantastic leadership programs at the program, including the Women's Leadership Program and.

They brought in speakers and experts there who talked about their personal experiences navigating these dynamics, and we all learned from the experiences of others. So some of those administrative resources, mentorship programs, those are really critical [00:14:00] in our department. We applied for funding from the Brigham Women's Physicians Organization.

They have a fantastic program called BE Well, which offers support for a number of grassroots programs that originate in different departments at the Brigham. And we applied for funding to support the role of what we call an academic coordinator. And that is an individual, not a research assistant, really bright fast thinking individual who's hardworking, who comes in, who's got a bachelor's and sometimes master's degree, who helps us do a lot of tasks related to academic advancement that are really below licensure for physicians.

Examples of that or things like maintaining what's. Ni h BioCatch working on formatting for, hm, sabs helping us format journal articles journal articles, references. So, you know, those are really great resources that we're trying to make available so that [00:15:00] women in our department can focus on, you know, what, what really takes up their time, including work-life balance.

Hardeep Ranu: Right. So you've hired someone. Who can, you know, it's sort of like, you know, I used to mow my lawn, right? And in, in total it probably takes maybe half an hour, 45 minutes, but it was such a chore to like be like, okay, I've got to get the lawnmower, start it, you know, then mow the lawn and then be done, whatever it, it was fine, but then, Since I started paying somebody else to come and do it.

It's like, I, I never have to worry about doing that. It just gets done. And then, yeah. You know, it's sort of that kind of a person that you have where you can give the, the, it's a sort of the tasks [00:16:00] that, and certainly with formatting things, they take time and, and it takes, and you can't. You can't rush those things either, but it, it's frustrating to be, to have to do it when there's no sort of gain.

I mean, yes there are because it's in the correct format and whatever, but on the other hand, it's time that you could have spent elsewhere. And so what you have in place is someone to. Do that work for, you know whoever uses it and it, and it frees up their time to, to do something more significant or whatever more, let's say valuable, enriching, that kind of thing.

It makes, it's I'm sure it's got a word, but it's a way in which you free up time that is, can be used. In a far more useful [00:17:00] way. Yeah.

Ashwini Nadkarni: Yeah, I agree. And I think that the program has been useful too in influencing culture because I think what we're trying hard to do is validate how much can take up an academicians time, right?

In academic medicine, you see patients, you teach, you do research, and as time goes on, we have more and more and more that's required to make gains in each of those areas. As a result of that, it's really nice when someone acknowledges, or a group of people or department or an institution, Recognizes how much time that takes for people and says, Hey, let's help you get some help and resources.

I think what you're describing too, with your experience with Mowing Lawn is that sense of psychological relief when you know that you are not accountability. It's like shift, you're not accountable, right? Like shifting a sense of accountability. I think that makes a big difference to [00:18:00] people, you know, when they just know that someone's gonna take care of something and they don't have to worry about it.

Hardeep Ranu: Right, right. One of the things that I like to do the most is, is whenever I can mm-hmm. Is I try and fly towards the front of the plane because the things, you know, and I, I find ways to do it as, as relatively. Cost effective as possible. But it's one of those things where also where, you know, it's such a relief not to have to do all the waiting involved.

When you are, you know, the, there's an e, there's a pressure. That's eased when you have more space at the front of the A plane, you don't have to fight. Of course, you know, cabins overhead locker. You don't have to wait in the queue to check in. You don't, you know, or all of those things get kind of eased.

Mm-hmm. [00:19:00] And it, it just makes the process so much more pleasant. Mm-hmm. And I, I hear you. You know, you know, I mean, there's, there's just that, some things like that where you just go, you know what, I, the, there are all, all of these things that I do that are kind of crappy, that's this and that. It's like the one time when you can do something for yourself where it's sort of, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna give this to myself.

And yes, some people might think it was an indulgence. But on the other hand, you can see it as being, no. It's a way to, you know, treat myself well.

Ashwini Nadkarni: Yeah, that makes so much sense. I mean, we fill up our head space with a lot and we have obligations to so many people in our lives, right? Whether it's the workplace or our communities, our children, our friends, our families.

It's really nice when you get a chance. [00:20:00] To just sit there and reflect and think and take a walk and have a little bit of time to yourself. I know what you mean in terms of feeling that that space and time is an indulgence. I think that that's because we're sensitized to believe that we have to be serving everybody else in our lives all the time, you know?

But I would say when I get a chance to just stare at a wall and think. That for me is a, is a huge relief. You know, and I'm fortunate that my family are locally situated and they help us out on the weekends and they take my kids on a Saturday and I find myself sitting there thinking, because someone's not interrupting me every couple of minutes asking for something,

Hardeep Ranu: you know?

Right. I mean, there's, there's real power in, in. Having that [00:21:00] time for, for, for boredom, I think. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Is what I have read, heard as well. And I also believe that that sort of being bored is one of the things that you can do for yourself. So, so yeah. Sitting and watching a clock mm-hmm. Or staring at a wall I is actually sounds counterproductive.

But actually it's the opposite. It makes you more productive because you are not. Torn in 10 different ways. Yeah,

Ashwini Nadkarni: and it makes sense too, even from a neurological standpoint, right? I know that there's studies out there that show that excessive multitasking does impact your working memory as demonstrated by F M R I studies.

Right. So we know for sure that if you can just try to sit there and focus on one [00:22:00] thing, which to a certain extent, I wouldn't, Define that exactly as mindfulness, but it's kind of getting you there, right? Like the concept of mindfulness meditation, fixating your energy and your concentration on one thing and holding it there is really therapeutic.

Hardeep Ranu: Wait, I forget. I'm talking to a psychiatrist. You know, you know all the neurological pathways and how the brain functions as well. So you can, you can offer that insight. So but as we were talking, you know, one of the things also is for, you know, women, I think that it's difficult for them to, To know that it's okay to to take that time for themselves.

And, and how have you kind of addressed that within, you know, your program within your D department and thinking about this, [00:23:00] you know, specifically women physicians burnout. Yeah,

Ashwini Nadkarni: so I have a colleague who is the chief of women's mental health, Dr. Lena Al. And she and I during Covid set up a group for the mom, psychiatrist and mom clinicians in the department at the time, and we would get together and talk about issues like this.

I think that one thing that was really helpful about that experience was when we would discuss this very issue and kind of give each other permission to feel the way that we did and share tips and tricks and tools that we were using to clear time for ourselves. Supports and resources that are available out there.

There are elements of this that have to do with culture. And it feels like there are elements of this that have to do with systems, right? I think you're, you're putting your finger on a cultural piece, which is that we all need to give ourselves permission to be able to do [00:24:00] this. So that's a piece of it.

And then there's the systems piece, which is looking for resources that help us shift accountability and free up our time. Trading tips and tools like that is incredibly useful. I think it also speaks to the power of peer support, which we don't often talk about. I believe in medicine and. Is not could, could be further investigated in the area of mentorship literature.

We have a tendency to feel that mentors or people who have lived longer than us, have more experience than us and you know, have a few white hairs on their head. But I think I've learned a lot from my peers in my department and my institution and collaborators across the institution and across actually Mass General Brigham and That to me is, is incredibly useful.

So peer support is something that we care about deeply in our department and I'm, you know, working closely with collaborators in [00:25:00] Medicine Primary Care, and across Mass General Brigham to make more of those supports available.

Hardeep Ranu: So what kind of suggestions would you give, you know, to other physicians, other, you know faculty, staff who are dealing with these kinds of issues.

What, what would you be your, I don't know, top 10? Top three, top five. Mm-hmm. However, whatever number you wanna get mm-hmm. Recommendations for, for dealing with this kind of, when you're getting close to burnout, when you know you are, you're, you're sort of on that edge or you're getting close to that edge.

Ashwini Nadkarni: First I would say, It's really important to recognize it in yourself. Remain attuned to it. Look for those instances where you feel that your values are not as well aligned with the institution or the organization. So call it like it is, you know, [00:26:00] to yourself. Have that self-awareness. The second is ask for help.

I think a lot of people think to themselves. This means it's time for me to lead the organization. I actually think that organizations and institutions are so much more mindful of this, have an awareness of this and want to help. I think about that as being particularly key in my department where there is such a desire to help everybody, to retain people, and to address anything that's going on.

A lot of times people feel, do feel comfortable going to their chiefs, to their peers. Debriefing about the issue can be extraordinarily helpful because there is a great deal of sensitivity to this idea that clinical care has changed, that navigating. Issues with one's families, it's, it's [00:27:00] much harder than it has been in the past.

There's this realization that our culture has shifted in complex ways with Covid. So asking for help is key and it can come through many different ways if you feel like you're depressed or anxious. Definitely get the support you need from either a therapist or psychiatrist or professional. If you feel like there's something going on at work, consider talking to a peer or your chief about it.

There are a few different types of supports that I personally have found to be really helpful. First, I think professional coaching is really helpful. Although we talk about how we as a system need to take accountability for what's going out there, for what's going on out there with burnout, I think that's absolutely true.

We need to change things with our culture. We need to try to address issues with operational efficiency and how we can set physicians up business. But coaching is something that I find can enhance [00:28:00] your own sense of self-awareness. Can help you think about ways that you can improve relationships, can help you identify specific skills to work on.

That gives you a sense of self-control and self-efficacy. So I've found coaching to be really useful. There's some fantastic ways that we can. Work on our culture and promote a culture of wellbeing. I have some peers and mentors and leaders who have taught me to do this really well. In a meeting, when you can amplify other women's voices, somebody makes a point that's a little bit different, that reframes the conversation, that moves it in a different direction, amplify their voice, build on what they're saying.

Another example of this is at a grand rounds in a, in a department, someone makes a contribution, build on it, amplify it. That's incredibly validating. Within the culture you see a peer colleague, a [00:29:00] mentor, a leader who you think is really contributing to the culture and the institution. Nominate them for an award, nominating them for an award can help their career and validate them and give them a sense of professional fulfillment.

So those are some easy tips, tricks and tools. And then lastly, a lot of organizations offer opportunities to work on operational efficiency. Clinical process improvement programs, quality improvement opportunities, these come up all the time at Mass General Brigham. There are tremendous opportunities in that area.

And after all, the idea of working on occupational burnout is just one more way to redesign healthcare to systems to improve quality of care because taking care of our workers takes care of our patients.

Hardeep Ranu: And also this is something that I believe is like that people don't take enough time off. You [00:30:00] know?

Ashwini Nadkarni: That's such a great practical point,

Hardeep Ranu: right? I mean, I kind of look and I go, you know, And I've, I've thought this for a long time, that people take the, the, you know, they'll take a day off here or they'll take a Friday off on a Monday and make it a long weekend here and there, here and there, and it's sort of like, but that doesn't give you the chance to like, kind of stop working.

You, you are always gonna be coming back to work. Mm-hmm. If you take mm-hmm. You know, two weeks off, which I know is almost like a bad concept for many people in the United States, but that when you take that two weeks off, you get a chance to be away. And yes, there's, there's more work when you come back, but on the other hand, you've had that time to be.

Away. And I, I'm also a big advocate of like, not checking your email.

Ashwini Nadkarni: I was [00:31:00] gonna say, that's one caveat. You have to not check your email. That's so true. That's such a great point. I've seen some people add signatures to their emails where they say things like, I'm not checking my email. I'll come back and check it later.

This is not a time that I'm available. Or they say things like, you know, be part of the email revolution and don't respond to this for three days. And I thought that that was really interesting. And I thought to myself, oh, you know, I, I always make note of interesting signatures that people have. I find that really impactful and unique way to influence culture.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, I, I mean, I, yeah. I. Absolutely don't check my email while I'm away and now actually over the weekends as well. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, and, and also after a certain point in the evening [00:32:00] and not, you know, first thing in the morning, it's sort of mm-hmm. I mean, I know, and I know for my position that there's nothing really urgent that's happening.

Mm-hmm. And so it, it's okay to do that and then, and there are obviously other ways in which people can get a hold of me, but mm-hmm. But I think that it's really, it's a really a good thing to stop you kind of getting that riled up feeling that if you get an email that does that mm-hmm. Then you know, when you have looked at it in the evening and then.

Now you have all night to like, go over it and over it. What am I gonna say? How, what you know, do I need mm-hmm. On versus and then versus just saying, okay, well I'll, I'm, if I don't check my email in the evening, then I, you know, you can just look at it in the morning. And then it's, it's a whole other looking at, at a [00:33:00] problematic email.

The morning means you have now have time to sort of Look at it with fresh eyes, and I I don't mean that you are looking at it again, but you are looking at it somewhat in a different context. Not with the whole day having been done. Mm-hmm.

Ashwini Nadkarni: Mm-hmm. I'm kinda not. I completely agree with you. I know exactly what you're talking about.

At the end of the day, you have a wariness, you're tired. Exhausted. You want some rest? Taking a look at that email in the morning gives you an opportunity to feel revitalized. And respond from that perspective. That's a fantastic point. I'll say, I think that not looking at your email is an exposure, you know, that's what, that's the word we use in a type of therapy called cognitive behavioral therapy, which desensitizes people, you have to desensitize yourself, I think, with not checking your email.

So [00:34:00] first you go weekend. Without checking it and nothing bad happens. So you create a hierarchy here, then you go the weekday, the, the evenings as you pointed out. Then you go the whole week or two without checking it. After you've done that, you've probably done the whole desensitization. We probably need an E A, not checking your email.

C B T protocol out there.

Hardeep Ranu: Probably, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I hadn't really thought of it mm-hmm. In terms of cbt, but the, yeah, it's, it's sort of like you take it. Small pieces at a time.

Ashwini Nadkarni: Yeah, I think that that shifted. I think the reason that's so necessary now is I really think things shifted in the workplace with Covid.

A huge shift in the field of psychiatry, of course, is telehealth and in medicine in general that happen. I have a lot of colleagues in primary care, other medical specialties. We now see patients routinely by telehealth and. Working via [00:35:00] telehealth is such a privilege because, you know, hybrid model of care, you think of increased flexibility, autonomy.

I absolutely love it. On the other hand, I realize I'm sitting at my computer all day. You know, there's not that time where you put your computer away, you get in your car and you drive and you kind of decompress and you can get some space from the workplace, you know? So I think that this. New paradigm of virtual care has shifted things where I suspect we're all in a lot more meetings and we are emailing each other a lot more because we're not sitting next to each other in offices and can't come out and just say, Hey Harvey, did you get me that paper?

I have to email you now and make you respond to it, you know?

Hardeep Ranu: Right. Yeah. I mean there's like, there's the whole, there's the benefits and downsides of, of Zoom, you know? Yeah. It, it makes things far more convenient [00:36:00] and For sure. I, you know, as you were talking, I was gonna ask you about how you found. Telehealth in terms of connecting with your patients? Mm-hmm. Is it better or is it worse or just different?

Ashwini Nadkarni: Yeah, I would say it's different. There's some aspects of it that I really appreciate, so I can really listen to my patients and look at them. I can also continue typing while I'm doing it, so to a certain extent because of the way that I'm positioned with the patient right in front of me. I can. Ease my documentation burden while I'm still pretty connected to the patient.

I continue to be in office. I spend 50% of my clinical time in the office evaluating patients. I have noticed when I'm in the office evaluating people and, and talking to them and working with them, there is a special connection of being with somebody in person. There's no question. We all have a [00:37:00] certain energy.

That we exude in person and that sense of connectivity, that warmth, there is something unique to that, that one can have in person. But I, I do think that there's tremendous value of telehealth, just the convenience. You know, some of my, some people I work with are coming from, you know, very far away and it's.

Hard to make time for these appointments, right? It's not, you know, a huge surgery. It's 30 minute appointment, and to ask them to take a day off or to commute from two hours away, it's really hard on people. So the convenience, the flexibility, I think that those are upsides. They're hard to be.

Hardeep Ranu: Right. Yeah.

And so you had just mentioned that you have been on some leadership courses and can you talk a bit about that, you know, what kind of things you've learned, you know, [00:38:00] and how how they have af, you know, influenced you going? Yeah,

Ashwini Nadkarni: so the way that I actually got involved in this work related to physician burnout is, Because of a leadership program.

So at the Brigham, we have the Brigham Leadership Program, which is a program that is organized in collaboration with Harvard Business School. So it's really an amazing opportunity. You get to have a number of sessions that are set up and led by professors at Harvard Business School. All of the participants are selected from the Brigham, so they're all physicians, administrators, nurses physician assistants, all disciplines, all varieties of leaders across the hospital.

What I gained from that was first, The networking experience of meeting so many people across the hospital, being able to have these [00:39:00] meaningful conversations with them about their experiences. Second, in the actual program that I completed almost six years ago now, they give you the chance to work with a group of individuals on a project.

The project that I selected was on physician burnout, and the team that I work with came up with a survey that we could distribute to our respective departments to measure the feeling of being appreciated. So in a culture of wellness, one of the dimensions of that is perceived appreciation and the gratitude that people experience for working in an organization.

So we sent this survey out to a number of different departments, including radiology, surgery, medicine, and we assessed. Qualitative information that people gave us on what made them feel appreciated or unappreciated. We published that data in [00:40:00] academic psychiatry and found that one of the most common reasons that people feel appreciated is when there is institutional recognition of what it takes to care for patients.

And the follow up to that is a set of resources that they're given to help them care for patients. So that was the number one reason that people felt appreciated. But that program also involved examining organizations and different dimensions of organizational efficiency and success through Harvard Business Review cases.

So they look at various aspects of what it means to work in an organization and advance. Your organization. So some of this has to do with, you know, how you work in teams, how you innovate, how you run programs. You learned some hard skills related to that, and it's really based on these business review cases.

So I thought that that was such a [00:41:00] unique opportunity at the Brigham that I've had, and that's really where my interest in this work began. So what

Hardeep Ranu: would, what was your, like one main takeaway that you sort of implemented as soon as you, you were done the course or even one o one other sessions, you ended, you were like that.

Okay, I'm gonna do that from now on.

Ashwini Nadkarni: I would probably say collaboration at a grassroots level. I think that that was a huge takeaway for me. That's called in the burnout literature, collaborative action planning. This idea that if you're going to implement a solution in an organization, Got to collect feedback at the front lines.

You can't just do something. You can't just take a problem and solve an isolation in a vacuum. You've got to collect data and feedback from people for whom that solution is made, right? And you've got to solicit their feedback on it. And you've got to iterate and take that feedback, come up with, you know, a [00:42:00] prototype or a solution or a program.

Go back to the front lines, get more feedback. Implement that feedback, go back to the frontline, you know, really talking to people, collaborating with people, implementing their feedback. That's so critical.

Hardeep Ranu: So that would be sort of going to your colleagues and saying, I'm having this kind of a problem. Are you having the same thing?

Ashwini Nadkarni: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I,

Hardeep Ranu: and then saying, okay. It seems like out of the 20 of us, 15 of us are having the same problem. Mm-hmm. And then would you take that to management or would you come up with your own solution and then take it to management? How would that, how would that work sort of in a operational sense?

Ashwini Nadkarni: Yeah. I think that that depends on the structure of the organization. Before I became the associate Vice chair for wellness, I had a role being our department's wellness champion and directing efforts to enhance [00:43:00] professional wellbeing. So I had the opportunity to really come up with these solutions and then find ways to implement them.

Now I'm set up to. Collaborate with my colleagues and leaders in our faculty affairs team, and I have a new structure. I think it really depends on the organization. I could see how somebody could feel really empowered by going to their managerial leaders and saying, Hey, I'm interested in taking a look at this issue.

Some of those managerial leaders might say, wow. Fantastic. Maybe we can look for funding together. Maybe we can publish these results together, you know, looking at this within the framework, medical organizations. Or they might say, yeah, let's connect you with the chief wellness officer of this institution and have you, you know, collaborate with them and take that idea to them.

So it might depend on the organizational setup.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay. And so this is a devil's advocate question, but. What about if I said to you, it's all just propaganda. [00:44:00] Mm-hmm. You know, all of this wellness stuff. It's just propaganda to make everybody think that they, they'll feel better. Or we're just going to show you this is, we're gonna do this and you're, you, we know you're gonna feel better.

Mm-hmm. It's just a way of, of yeah, just propaganda.

Ashwini Nadkarni: So I would say to that, that the last 10 years have had an enormous effect on the culture of medicine. I see that in the ways that I work with colleagues and and I, and I noticed the impact of the shift and the language that we're using this idea that.

We no longer have this culture of self-sacrifice, you know, I think that that's a really positive one. You know, I really do. I think [00:45:00] that that's a very positive one. Most institutions, not most, many institutions are now implementing mental health clinics, or their clinicians and their employees, and that's a really discernible shift in the culture.

You know, concretely, Things are happening out there, right? People are taking this seriously. So some of these changes that institutions and organizations are making, they're not, they're not just dialogue. They're not just language. They're putting resources and funding towards everything. And that tells me that this is more than just propaganda, you know, it's, it's impacting how we think about our careers and how we practice.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. And one thing as you were talking was that, that the, the employee assistance programs are really beneficial and I, and in, in many ways in terms of, [00:46:00] you know, if you need to find a therapist or like you said, professional coach, like you use your employee assistance program to To find someone, at least to get the, the ball rolling.

It may not be a great fit straight away, but, but at least you've kind of got the ball rolling. Yeah. I think is, is a way to get it started. So as we kind of start to wrap up and get to the end of our time, there's two questions I always ask. One is what's one professional skill you're working on and what's one personal skill you're working on?

Ashwini Nadkarni: So a professional skill that I'm working on is mentoring. Mentorship is something that is really important to me. I have been. Fortunate to receive a lot of really fantastic mentorship and I want to pay that forward. I want to be able to understand when somebody is looking for advice versus just a [00:47:00] kind year, you know, to listen to them.

I want to be able to advance others' careers. I want to be able to grow with the great minds of. Medicine because those are the people who are gonna be treating my kids and my grandkids, you know? So that matters to me a lot. This concept of posterity, you know, how do we contribute to posterity? We contributed to it in medicine through mentorship.

So that's a skill I'd like to work on. In terms of a personal skill, I think I am one of those people who meets that email desensitization course. I definitely do. I think of myself as a very responsive individual and I love to be responsive and I definitely respond to emails as quickly as I can. I'm trying hard to slow down, and I used to be someone who never checked emails on the weekends, and now I do, and I think there's an opportunity for me to desensitize myself.

So I really think you gave me [00:48:00] a gem here today, Hardeep.

Hardeep Ranu: I was gonna, I was gonna say, okay, so Physician Healy, myself, I think you gave your, yourself your own treatment partner right, as well? Yeah, I did. I totally did. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So as we sort of get to the end, do you have anything else you wanna add?

The, the, I didn't touch upon or you want people to know?

Ashwini Nadkarni: Yeah. I think that sometimes when we talk about burnout and professional fulfillment, it's hard. It, it feels hard, you know, it feels like we have this fragmented healthcare system. We are all. Burden with regulatory overload. We have administrative issues.

Feels like we have so many obligations out there. One of the things, one of the reasons that I feel so optimistic about this field and why I'm so dedicated to it is I do feel like there is such a recognition among institutions and [00:49:00] organizations of the importance of this, but also I think there's a lot of opportunities for change that we can.

Do just really small things. You have really small things we can all do to brighten someone's day, you know, and change is always slow, but it takes many, many, many different small, itty bitty little changes to me have a huge effect. And I think we're all capable of doing that. So don't give up if you're out there listening to this.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. Am I, and what you said, it's, it's like those little things that make a huge difference.

Ashwini Nadkarni: They make a huge difference. Yeah. It's the concept of the long tail. You know, on the internet, on election day, everybody's looking up, you know, you've got a 5 million people looking up. You know, who won the presidency, but every day five people look up, you know, how to remove a warp from their toe.

And the [00:50:00] amount of actual traffic that accumulates over time on that teeny tiny search is huge. Right? So it's the concept of a long town. It's definitely something that I ascribe to.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. Yeah, I, I have certainly noticed that, you know, there's little moments where somebody says something to me, and it can be anybody.

A bus driver or whatever it is. Mm-hmm. You know, it'll give you a big smile or mm-hmm. Whatever it is. And it, it just kinda lifts you,

Ashwini Nadkarni: it lifts you up. I totally hear you. I totally agree with you. Or a conversation like you're having. With your colleagues and you're discussing, you know, different ways to learn about something and somebody is vulnerable for a moment and says, oh, I kinda struggled with that.

Are you having an issue with that? And it shifts the tone in the conversation where things are much more collegial and safe. You know, we have some [00:51:00] control over those things.

Hardeep Ranu: Right? Yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm a big advocate of, of doing those kind of things and certainly. When somebody does something that has helped me, I try

to, you wanna pay

it forward?

Ashwini Nadkarni: Pay it forward, but also acknowledge the extent to which they've helped me. Yeah, yeah.

Hardeep Ranu: Point. You know, it's like that specific feedback. Mm-hmm. And you give that really specific feedback. I, I remember being at some training where, you know, If you think back to the time somebody has given you feedback mm-hmm.

When it's really made a difference and what is it about that feedback that made a difference and it's mm-hmm. The specificity of it.

Ashwini Nadkarni: Yeah. Yeah, I've heard that too. I have heard really specific, timely feedback. Can make people feel very appreciated.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. Yeah. Those are the kind of ones when you, especially when you get it by [00:52:00] email that, and I, and I highly advocate people doing this, is to copy and paste that into a document and label it as saying nice things people have said to me and then you can, that's such a great idea.

And then you can go back and look at it on the days when you have the people who have said not nice things to you. So mm-hmm. So I, I advocate to, to, to doing that, that mm-hmm. Have that document where mm-hmm. You can add to it and go back and look at it.

Ashwini Nadkarni: Yeah. I'm gonna pass that on. Can I pass that on?

Hardeep Ranu: Of course. Of course. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You everyone needs that document. Yeah. I think you're right. Yeah. When you need to remind yourself that you are a good person mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Just as you are, so, yeah. Yeah.

Ashwini Nadkarni: That's a great point. Yeah. Okay. It was so nice to be here today. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Have this conversation with you.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. Yeah. Nice. It was good. Yeah. Thank you so much for again, [00:53:00] volunteering being brave enough to do this.

Ashwini Nadkarni: Yeah, it was a pleasure.

Hardeep Ranu: Oh, yeah, this again, the, there's these things that point towards, I think they're big arrows, which I try not to look at, but that tell me that I should be doing this as a job, right?

Versus what I, what I am supposed to do as a, as a thing. And it, it never fails to. Y You know, it's one of those things where I'm like, at some point I have to stop ignoring the big arrows or somehow try and find a way to make this my, my something that I actually get paid for rather than doing. That's fantastic.

Ashwini Nadkarni: Yeah. I really enjoy the conversation with you. I agree. You're great.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, I, I really like it. I

Ashwini Nadkarni: I totally get it. I totally understand why you work on it. Yeah.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. And you. Sorry. Oh, [00:54:00] who did, you gave me this idea actually, if I see, this is the thing when it's not your job, right? Is that I have so many ideas about this podcast that there's ways in which to, to, to make it.

Not as sort of always just an, an interview or a conversation. Yeah. Things was, that you had mentioned was mentorship and how you were working on that as a professional skill. Mm-hmm. But it almost feels to me like I could, I could do a whole show on mentorship. What would You should

Ashwini Nadkarni: Absolutely. You should.

You totally should.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. And it's a question of just. How I would wanna do that. So yeah. But that was a really good point because it's also something that I kind of go, well, what is a mentor? Yeah. You know,

Ashwini Nadkarni: Who different people are looking for different types of mentorship. I think that's what it comes down to.

You never really know, you know, until you get to [00:55:00] know the person. Some people are looking for advice with interpersonal conflict. Some people are looking for resources. Some people are looking for sponsorship. Some people are just looking for validation and empathy, honestly. Right. You know?

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. So, yeah, there's, there's, there's that.

As well. You

Ashwini Nadkarni: don't know. You don't know what you want until you sort of get on the bus and start moving, you know?

Hardeep Ranu: Right, right. Which is, again, you know, where that whole thing about mentorship is, is sort of working. Mm-hmm.

Ashwini Nadkarni: Yeah. Yeah. You could do a whole talk on it, you know? Maybe, I think personally, what would be interesting, I'm just gonna throw this out there for you so far.

I think it'd be so cool for you to bring on somebody who's just starting out and then somebody who's Like, I don't know, like a conversation with at least two people, maybe even three. Like the junior person, the mid-career person, and the senior person, or just like the junior senior. Cuz I think it's interesting to have the dyad, you know?

Join me for a conversation with Zoe Spearman, a dynamic project administrator in the Office of the Dean of the Faculty of Medicine. In this episode, my guest unveils the unique nature of her role, where she embraces diverse projects, problem-solving, and making critical decisions to support the dean. We hear about her advocacy for climate change mitigation and raising awareness about the impact of climate change on human health. Experience the power of teamwork, collaboration, and the fulfillment she finds in her role. Prepare for an engaging conversation celebrating triumphs, challenges, and the collective drive to make a difference.

Transcript:

Hardeep Ranu: [00:00:00] Hello today, I am joined by the fantastic Zoe Spearman, who is a project administrator in the office of the Dean of Harvard Medical School. And so Zoe, welcome. And do you want to introduce yourself? Give us a little background and as to who you are. How you started working in the, in the dean's office.

Zoe Spearman: Hi, Hardeep.

Thank you for having me today. I started as the project administrator in the office of the dean of the faculty of medicine in September of 2022. I graduated from Occidental College in the spring of 2021, where I studied biology and environmental science. And most of my previous positions have been [00:01:00] working in labs, biology labs focused on climate research.

And when I graduated, I was planning to move to San Francisco and I had a job lined up working at a AmeriCorps position. And I ended up wanting to move back to Boston. I'm from the new England area originally. And I started working as a paraprofessional in The Brookline school system at Peer School in Brookline Village and after that, I, I found this job on LinkedIn and was interviewing with Jen Ryan, the chief of staff, and was really excited about the position and.

And that's why I'm here now.

Hardeep Ranu: One of the things about this job that I remember you telling me that it's completely different. You get to have sort of stretch assignments and things like that. How is it? How is that for you? Because, you know, many of the people I've already spoken to are the [00:02:00] supervisors,  they're talking from their perspective in terms of how they manage their graduate students or postdocs.

So I want to hear more about things from your perspective as the supervisor, you know, what, what do you like when you get a stretch assignment?

Zoe Spearman: Sure, sure, absolutely. So one thing that was really exciting about, about the position when I was first interviewing was that it's, it's a new position. So I wasn't filling anyone's shoes.

I was completely able to make it my own. And most of the projects I'm working on are very unique. I'm sort of doing something different every day. And I was hired to basically yeah. Make the chief of staff's life easier. And so I think one thing that's sometimes a challenge about the job is kind of figuring out it's a it's a lot of problem solving because I'm not, there's minimal supervision and I'm not really carried through the position.

So often Jen [00:03:00] gives me various assignments and I. kind of just run with it and I'm able to make it my own. At the beginning of when I started the position I, I remember there being a, a learning curve with that. And, but I've sort of found some, some grace in that now that I've kind of got my footing and I've kind of Found this confidence in being able to make those decisions about like caterer or who, how many, how many people do we, do we presume will be coming to the event or where should this event be held in the beginning?

I remember really not wanting to. mess up or make the wrong decision. And I think Jen sort of kind of helped develop this confidence in me that I can make these decisions and that she wants my opinion, which I think has been a really interesting part of the position.

Hardeep Ranu: So what is it that you think makes it that she can trust you with those decisions?[00:04:00]

Zoe Spearman: Yeah, I think it was sort of a couple different. I mean, so another thing about my position is some days are really, really busy and other days are, are pretty slow. So in some of those really busy times, especially in the beginning, I remember having to make those decisions on the fly because we couldn't, we didn't have time to, to parse out every, every piece of an event.

And then I think afterwards, when we were debriefing and sort of talking about how it went and when she would sort of just just tell me that I did a good job and tell me that that was that that was the right decision. And I think I've sort of found found my footing there with being able to make the make those decisions.

And sort of that positive reinforcement has been really helpful.

Hardeep Ranu: So, I mean, that that sounds like she makes it psychologically safe.

Zoe Spearman: Absolutely. And she definitely takes. sort of creates this work environment where she wants, she wants feedback on how, on how she's doing. And overall, one thing I've realized, I [00:05:00] mean, so this is my second job out of college.

And I think something I've realized throughout this process is like, during the job search, I didn't really know What I wanted in a position when I was reading through the different job descriptions, you can sort of see the various tasks you're doing, but it doesn't really I feel like on the day to day.

That isn't specifically what matters. Something that I've realized really does matter is your supervisor. You can be doing amazing work. That's really empowering. But if you have a supervisor who isn't supportive or Thank you. If you don't have a positive work environment, it can, it can really ruin the, the position.

So that's been something I've really learned about this job is that sort of having a healthy work environment really is the most important.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. So it sounds like it's a really collaborative. Work environment that you, you're in.

Zoe Spearman: Yes. It sort of feels like we have many different projects and various initiatives all to support the Dean.

And then we all kind of are working as a team to, to kind of lessen [00:06:00] that load and, and, and figure it out and figure it all out together, which I think is a really lovely way of working. Like I, I feel comfortable asking, asking for help when I need it and offering time when I, when I have time to spare.

And I think, yeah, it's just a very fulfilling position. Yeah. Thank you.

Hardeep Ranu: So one of the things that I think you had said that the previous position was not your most favorite of experiences. Talk about the differences, I think, between that position and this.

Zoe Spearman: Sure, sure. So I think communication is one piece that I would highlight specifically.

I think having weekly or bi weekly check ins with your supervisor is really, really important when you can sort of have their undivided attention to sort of list off a couple things. In the past, I think that wasn't, or just in my previous job last year, that wasn't something I was able to really have, which was difficult because then you don't, you don't know, I didn't [00:07:00] know how, how I was doing and wasn't able to sort of check in about.

my, my performance. So that was one piece of my last position that was difficult. I also think just this, this like teamwork aspect is something I really appreciate. In my last position, it was more about sort of the work you could, you were doing on your own. And I think that, that has a piece of, that was also difficult with the communication.

There wasn't as much of a team, teamwork attitude in that job.

Hardeep Ranu: Okay. So you have biology background and scientific background. you know, it's the medical school. It's all about science research. Does having that background help you?

Zoe Spearman: Yes, that's a great question. Absolutely. It does. So when I, when I first came to Occidental College, I started out as a pre med student and my first week of school, I wrote out my four year plan with my pre med advisor, and we sort of mapped out my whole four years.

And then upon reflecting, I kind of [00:08:00] decided that I wanted to explore a bit more and that I wasn't fully set on, on that career as a freshman in college. And so I dropped that and, but I, but I stuck with my biology and became really excited in climate research and sort of learning about the effects of climate change on various environments, marine environments.

But there was still that sort of piece of, piece of me that was interested in, in caregiving and in, and in medicine. And in 2020, when COVID hit, I decided to become a hospice volunteer. And then upon graduating, I did a preceptorship at Huntington hospital. And when I was looking for a position and I saw a job at the medical school, I sort of thought that it could be, I've always been interested in higher education and I thought it could be a, of an exciting position.

And something that has been fantastic about this job is that my supervisor sort of [00:09:00] has seen my interest in climate and she's been Connecting me with with various mentors at the School of Public Health and and around the medical school so I can connect with those individuals and sort of understand the various degrees and various opportunities to work in climate at a medical school or at or at the School of Public Health and I think That's been a very valuable experience because as a young person recently graduating from college, I don't think I am fully aware of all of the different opportunities.

And so it's been very exciting to meet so many different types of people.

Hardeep Ranu: So what kind of types of people have you met in that climate change world? I know it's huge in over at the School of Public Health as well as at the medical school. Yeah, sure.

Zoe Spearman: So many different types of researchers, pulmonologists, and, and also doctors who are really invested in sort of understanding the [00:10:00] effects of Are changing climate on on human health.

And I think that's also been something recently that I've become more excited about is this intersection, this intersection between climate and health and sort of being able to blend these two interests of mine to sort of advocate for. mitigating climate change and inspiring action among people because our changing climate it will be and already is affecting human health.

I think that's more, or for some people that that is more convincing than just seeing that climate change is affecting the, the barrier, the Great Barrier Reef or, or affecting marine environments, sort of understanding that there is a detrimental effect of climate change on, on human health and on.

Hardeep Ranu: What made you choose Occidental College?

If you're from New England, it's far away.

Zoe Spearman: Yes. Yes. So I went to school in Maine at Berwick Academy in South [00:11:00] Berwick, Maine, and I actually came to a Boston. college fair with all of those various colleges and they have a great biology program. And I knew I wanted to go to a small liberal arts school and I wanted to go somewhere I'd never, never been before and spend, spend time somewhere new and somewhere that I can be outside.

And I'm really, really thankful that I did. I was also very excited about At Occidental College, they have this branch of student government called the Renewable Energy and Sustainability Fund, and when I was a freshman, I applied and actually ended up being the treasurer my freshman year, and that sort of molded my entire college experience was being part of this, of this group where we would Just really be, be involved in climate action on campus.

Hardeep Ranu: Did you [00:12:00] think that your college experience prepared you for like working in the real world? I'm always interested.

Zoe Spearman: Yeah, that's a great question. I think a lot of the skills, the skills that I learned, especially at, with my liberal arts education, there was a,  very strong focus on writing and public speaking and, and also getting a wide range.

of understanding. So there's a, there are many, many required classes that I think I have a pretty well rounded education. It took me a long time to, to decide my major. And I think there's a, there's a difference between what you like taking classes in and what you want to major in versus what you want in a career.

I think it's very, very different. And I think my college experience really prepared me well to maybe work in a lab, work as a researcher, but upon graduating, I kind of decided that I, I'm not [00:13:00] positive if that's what I want to be doing. And I, I sort of wish there had been. Maybe like a couple of classes on job search and sort of the different the different types of careers for each major and sort of what you would be set up for.

But I think I developed many skills like my organizational skills in college that have really. But being an asset since graduating, and I think this position, most of my background, like I remember when I was interviewing, I sort of was saying a lot of my work experience and my background and my education is in biology and working as a project administrator is completely different.

I don't really have a whole lot of experience in this area, but the skills that I've developed on my own, my organizational skills, my. communication skills would really be an asset. And I think that's been a really fulfilling part of the role is that I sort of, the reason why I was prepared to take on this role was because of these parts of myself that I've developed on my own and that sort of came naturally.

So that's [00:14:00] been an exciting part of the position.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. I mean, it's different. Knowing how to pipette in a lab and, you know, do some kind of reaction to, to the organizational skills. But there are organizational skills that are necessary in, you know, in lab research. But I'm interested to know more about what those organizational skills that you worked on, on your own were and why and the communication as well, you know, and why you specifically chose to focus on, on those.

Yeah, sure.

Zoe Spearman: So I've always been a pretty organized person. There was something I was sort of like teased about in high school and kind of like, I'm a list maker and I'm, I would say I'm pretty good at managing various things at once. And I sort of think in, in middle school, I wasn't a great. student in middle, in middle school, like school didn't really come, come easily to me.

And I sort of picked up on at the end of middle school and into high school, it was really for me, it was really going to be about the effort that I put in. And I think a big piece of that [00:15:00] was the, the organization and sort of the time management. I always sort of found that I needed to put in more time in comparison to some, to some people that I knew it, it took more time for me to, to get a hold on things at times.

I think the, the communication skills, I mean, one piece of that was from working on student government. My role was sort of to bridge the gap between the, the administration and, and the school and, and the, and the student body. And I think that really helped. Develop my, my communication skills, sort of this multi stakeholder interaction, and they've really come back.

That's really come in handy in this position when I'm working with so many different types of people and balancing the needs of many,

Hardeep Ranu: do you have any tips? your organizational skill?

Zoe Spearman: Oh, that's a great question. Sure. Well, so I'm a huge list maker. I know you, you, you had asked one personal skill that I'm working on and it's actually kind of trying to move away from the list.

I [00:16:00] think I've gone a little overboard with the list making. Like lately I've been realizing that I put Fun things or like self care things on my to do list. And it kind of ruins it. It kind of, then it just becomes a task to do. So I'm trying to move, move away from that, but I think at least in my job specifically, I'm working on a million things at once.

And they all have different timelines, like I'm working on something that's going to be in January of 2024. I've been working on that for the past, like, six months, and so that has a much different timescale than something that I need to do a week from now. So kind of prioriti prioritization. of, of your various tasks and just starting.

I think it's really, it can be really difficult to, to start something. So if you kind of chip away at things over time, I find that to be really difficult or, or, or really, really helpful instead of, putting things off, I learned not to procrastinate very early on. [00:17:00] Yeah. Those are my main.

Hardeep Ranu: How about communication from your days in student government and talking to people?

Like, what do you find was the best way to connect with them or, you know, or something like that? What were the things that worked well? Yeah.

Zoe Spearman: I think just kind of, or being, being approachable and sort of open, I think is something that I see as a, an important part of, of good communication and sort of kind of knowing how to.

Give constructive criticism, but also, and then also be able to admit when you went, when you're wrong or, or admit when you could have done something better. I think those are really important pieces of communication and also just like also just regular check ins. And another thing that I found really, really helpful is sort of, especially at the beginning, especially when I'm starting a position, but also routinely throughout, throughout the kind of the day to day is just sort of.

Explaining what what you [00:18:00] think you're doing well or sort of checking in about what you could be doing better, especially when you're starting a job, understanding what what is expected of you. I think in my last position, I feel like I didn't have I was never kind of given. I never had an orientation. I never was kind of given this.

explanation of what, what was wanted of me. And even when I would ask, it was, it was sort of like blurry. And I think that was something I really appreciated about this position was from the first day I sort of understood what my role was and what, and what I needed to do to, to fulfill that role in a, in a productive way.

And sometimes that changes over time also. And And so just having routine check ins about, about how you're doing. Yeah.

Hardeep Ranu: So in terms of public speaking, what kind of advice do you have?

Zoe Spearman: Sure. That's a very good question. I actually, so public speaking has been really something difficult for me because I grew up with a [00:19:00] stutter, a speech impediment for, into high school even.

So I, public speaking was something that I really Really did not enjoy so I definitely don't know if I'm the first to be giving advice on this but or maybe or maybe maybe I am then because I feel like I feel quite confident now with public speaking,

Hardeep Ranu: but you have to work. It's hard to, I don't know if the right word is overcome, your stutter or to, I don't know, is it, is it right to say overcome or, or to, you know, do you, do people need to overcome something like that?

Zoe Spearman: Yeah. That's a great, that's a great question. I think for me, I sort of, for me, even my, my stutter now comes out in different, like I, my stutter is pretty strong when I'm with my family, kind of trying to get a word in them. Get. And I think for me, a lot of it's sort of like, I don't want to say in my head, but kind of depends on sort of like, sometimes it's sort of, you got to like fake it till you make it like fake this confidence.

Like you're not, I'm not [00:20:00] kind of just. A lot of it's also about breath control. We could do like, we could do a whole podcast talking about stutters and speech impediments, but I think, yeah, breath control and taking, and taking your time and, and practicing. Like I, that's something that really got me through my stutter was reading aloud and, and, preparing for, for presentations and yeah, just, just putting in the time.

But yeah, public speaking has been Has been, I think that was, yeah, it's definitely been a difficulty for me.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. I mean, it is for everyone. One of the things that I say about public speaking is, is to do. Oh, really? Because that is something where it really helps with the fear of public speaking because once you get used to doing it, you no longer feel the need to be.

right every time and to [00:21:00] get it right. And so that, and if something kind of is going awry, you can take a moment and sort of say, okay, how do I move on from this? And it's also a way in which you just have to keep moving. If the thing keeps going, cause that's the whole idea is sort of moving on from the mistakes because you, you know, you're going to make a mistake.

Because no one's perfect. And the other thing about improv is that you never know what the other person is going to say. So you can't be deciding what you're going to say while they're saying something because you actually have to pay attention to what they're saying. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Love doing improve.

I'll go do drop ins every now and then or whatever. And I've taken, I took a whole class of it, a whole semester of it at the extension school, which was, I mean, that was like transformative for me, you know, life changing in terms of being able to stand up in front of [00:22:00] people and talk or, you know.

Zoe Spearman: Was that your first, your first experience with improv or had you?

Oh, wow. Okay.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, it was life changing. And it's something that it's, I mean, it's also so much fun to do just so much fun, but it's also a question of paying attention to what the other person is saying and you build off that. Yes. Yeah.

Zoe Spearman: I always felt, or I always found that in conversation, my stutter wouldn't, wouldn't be as prominent as when I was giving a presentation or reading aloud.

And I always also felt like it wasn't specifically that I, it wasn't that I was nervous or I think I wasn't the most nervous kid. I was kind of loud and yeah, not, not very nervous, but, but yeah, definitely had these, like these blockages and, and as I was speaking often.

Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. So it's a, it's a sort of a way in which you forget about the spotlight.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and you're [00:23:00] just, it's just a question of moving on from whatever it was that was, was said, it gets you out of your head as well.

Zoe Spearman: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think now I. Now that I would say, I, I know a lot of people in my life wouldn't even, they've said they don't even realize that, that I have a stutter or ever, ever had a stutter, but it definitely is still part of, part of my life, or if I know I have an important meeting or, or, or an experience like this on, on a podcast, and it can be sort of, it definitely is a more, a more intense experience at times, but, but it's also something that yeah.

is, is quite fulfilling because I've, because I've struggled with it for, for a long time. Yeah.

Hardeep Ranu: And you've touched upon the personal skill that you're working on. So what professional skill that you're working on? Sure.

Zoe Spearman: So this kind of goes with the, the communication aspect that we were talking about before, but kind [00:24:00] of a professional skill that I've been working on lately has been navigating different personalities and the various needs of different people.

In my position, I am constantly working with new people and different kinds of people who have And I think that's been a very fulfilling piece of the role and kind of, and just something I think that that's difficult, especially in this professional environment versus in college or, or working with the professor student relationship that I had in college and now kind of having this professional environment where we're more, we're on the same, we're on the same playing field and it's been very interesting.

Yeah.

Hardeep Ranu: That for sure is something that is. in the workplaces,  working with all sorts of different people. And

Zoe Spearman: really important being able to navigate and, and sort of understand the, the different needs of, of people and, and how they like to communicate.

Hardeep Ranu: So what [00:25:00] kind of things do you like to do for fun?

Cause I do see, I do a guitar and I think a ukulele, right?

Zoe Spearman: Yes. Yep. Both. That's, yeah, that's another personal skill that I'm trying to, during, during COVID, I, or during the pandemic lockdown, I picked up the guitar. I had played for, for many years, but I kind of more seriously started playing. And then once I sort of started the, started this position and, and my work last year, I kind of lost it a bit.

And so now I've been actually taking lessons and it's fantastic. It's so fun to. To sort of wind down with playing guitar. So that's something also running has been something that I've been getting more into since moving to Boston. And that's been also very fulfilling. Cool.

Hardeep Ranu: And any other kind of self care things that you do?

Zoe Spearman: I'm joining a kickball team. I don't know if this specifically is self care, but I'm, I feel like a one piece of self care that has been [00:26:00] really making me feel good lately has just been meeting new people. And I'm Joining this kickball team with a bunch of new people around the Cambridge area that I'm very excited about.

Gets me outside, which always makes me feel good. Yeah.

Hardeep Ranu: Thanks, Zoe, for doing this. It was great. So great to have some staff members doing this. And I hope more staff will volunteer to have a conversation with me as well.

Zoe Spearman: Thank you. Thanks. I appreciate being here.[00:27:00]