Join me in this meaningful conversation with Sharon Dekel, an Assistant Professor at Massachusetts General Hospital, on her pioneering research on PTSD in women who have experienced a traumatic childbirth. You'll also hear about her work as a mentor and the subtle ways in which her two-year compulsory military service in the Israeli Army influences her management style and allows her to use it as an example of the importance of attention to detail to her mentees.
Transcript:
Hardeep Ranu: [00:00:00] Okay. Hello. Today I am joined with Sharon Deckel, an assistant professor at Mass General Hospital. Sharon, do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself?
Sharon Dekel: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to join this podcast. I am a faculty member of Harvard Medical School, assistant professor promotion in the promotion process to associates and my lab at Mass General Hospital.
In Department of Psychiatry, I study maternal mental health during pregnancy and in the postpartum period, focusing especially on cases of birth trauma and how the birth event might result in developing post mortem stress disorder. I lead clinical. Investigations and translational studies to better characterize and develop state of the art interventions and early assessments to prevent what we call childhood APTEC.[00:01:00]
Hardeep Ranu: Okay, so I recently read a book by Rachel Aviv and it's called Strangers Unto Ourselves. And it's a, it's a book going through different people, profiling some different people in their mental health struggles from that perspective. And one of them was actually, a young woman who had postpartum depression.
So how prevalent is it?
Sharon Dekel: That's a great question. Prevalency is somehow tricky to define when we talk about maternal mental health disorders or what we call maternal and sickle pathology because we know that mental health has a lot of stigma and people often do not report symptoms in the case of postpartum.
Women who have mental illness fall into hot birth very much likely to women not to to underreport their symptoms. Possibly they're not even assessed for their conditions. Overall, based on research, we know that between close to one out of five women will suffer from either minor or major depression falling to upper.
So [00:02:00] that's 20%. That's a significant portion of women. And we also, there's a lot of evidence to show that a woman who is developing a psychopathology fall into hot birth really increases the risk of. Health problems in the infant, especially developmental delays, that would also impact the health of the child as the child becomes an adult.
So the idea of early on preventing maternal psychopathology to improve the health outcomes of the mother and her infant.
Hardeep Ranu: Okay. So 20%, and then that's an underreported, you know, could be anywhere up to 30, maybe even 40%, you know.
Sharon Dekel: In some countries, you know, there's some research, for example, in Iran and, and, and you know, regions in Africa, then these rates possibly are even higher.
Hardeep Ranu: Do you have any hypothesis or any idea why it would be higher in those areas?
Sharon Dekel: We talk again a lot about this idea of, of, of stigma, underreporting, symptoms, access to healthcare. you know, we talk about motherhood and the idea, idea of [00:03:00] the identity of the person and how Being a mom in different cultures might have a certain kind of type of identity.
So there's, there's a lot of reasons, possibly in more low resource, regions of the world, there is less access and less awareness of mental health conditions. So these conditions are not really screened. People maybe don't even know that they're suffering from depression. So the rates are just very, very high due to, I think, lack of access to treatment.
Hardeep Ranu: And so can you go into your research a bit more like. Some of the findings and, areas where you would like to go or, you know, or even, you know, some kind of a project that you would like to do, but it's sort of slightly off the beaten track. cause there must be one of those projects that you have that you're like, Oh, I really love it if I could get the funding or a little bit of funding to do that.
Sharon Dekel: I have so many studies I would like to do above and beyond my, my funding and above and beyond the, the means in terms of the [00:04:00] resources, of my person on the lab. currently one of our exciting studies is a imaging study. So, you know, to your question, why are people suffering from mental health? Why are the rates so high?
We are trying to understand the neural mechanism that in this case, it would be for a PTC fall in childbirth to be able to develop. And identify biomarkers or is there is in psychiatry, as I'm sure this audience knows, there is really no, biomarker that has led its way to the clinic. So our assessments are done based on reporting.
And the more we would know the hardcore biology, which in this case, we're talking about when we talk about mental health, we usually are talking about brain disorders. So we really want to understand the maternal brains. That's a very exciting, and important. study that is currently being conducted in my lab, one of the studies that is in the pilot phase.
So we have all the IRB approval to conduct the study. We have even our collaborators is to really study maternal mental health, not only among women who reside in the U S but [00:05:00] possibly open the research into kind of more global mental health. And we developed this collaboration with a team in Nigeria to study PTC falling childbirth, especially because we know that rates are what we call, near miss.
Some women who almost die in the context of giving birth is much higher in Africa, including in Nigeria. And there is sometimes, unfortunately more frequently than not a lot of what we call, violence in the course of giving birth by the providing team. So we really feel there's so much need to educate the providers and to collect data to support the possibly.
A heavy toll of underrepresented women who live in these regions of the world and, pending more support, funding, that is something that we would ideally move into not only the pilot phase, but usually, but actually expand it, above and beyond this kind of preliminary phase of data collection.
Hardeep Ranu: Have you got any results so far? Do you have any hints of how [00:06:00] it looks?
Sharon Dekel: We are just collecting data. I, I'm, I'm very eager to look at the data because what I know so far is just from anecdotal cases of my collaborators at this hospital. They shared with me these very. I would say, you know, really mind blowing stories.
You can't even imagine this is what's happening to women in some places in the world. But these are stories. These are cases of people. So I think there's any way and I think MGH and Harvard Medical School is, in a great position to empower women, possibly all over the world through improving their health outcomes.
So I'm really excited to see these results.
Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. Is there anything that you have found so far in your research that, you know, I'd say you would recommend, because I know that you're a clinical psychologist as well, right? So you must have some ideas, you know, what you would say to women who are pregnant or thinking of getting pregnant, you know, if they're worried about this, [00:07:00] you know, is there a way, I mean, is there a way of like, I don't preventing it or be, I mean, I guess it's just being aware of it.
Sharon Dekel: You know, without saying anything prematurely, I would say there possibly is potential for prevention and actually recently received, as of early February, an NIH funding, NIH award to test a brief psychological intervention given to women who experienced birth trauma and seeing whether this early intervention in the first days following childbirth could actually prevent their PTSD.
So, I would for an audience who are for people who actually might have a birth trauma or feeling very anxious during pregnancy about their forthcoming delivery, I would first suggest speaking with a specialist, speaking with a mental health provider about their anxiety. Self disclosing, you know, in 2017, I began studying birth trauma and maternal PTC.
I am based in the North Science Division and kind of the larger PTC. program. And I am, to my knowledge, the only female, investigator. So as a, as an idea of studying [00:08:00] maternal PTSD among my more senior male colleagues was something that was, I think that kind of was somehow not really clear what, why, why I'm focusing on this.
Can birth actually be so traumatic, like going, going to war clearly today, we know there isn't enough evidence to support, the fact that birth could be very traumatic. so along this, I see. And, and I continue to see in all my studies that we have women who present with, you know, what we call full blown PTSD, which would mean that a psycho, psychologist, psychiatrist who does an evaluation for these people would definitely say they have PTSD, not because another trauma, but because of birth.
But most people never talked about the traumatic delivery, never received treatment. So this is something I every time find very surprising, the limited awareness and, the limited. resources, even if the resources exist, knowing what to do when you have the symptoms, who you can reach out to. So definitely I would suggest as soon as possible when you're feeling that things are not really are kind of out [00:09:00] of the ordinary to speak with somebody and to see a health provider and to see a mental health provider, to see if there's any need for, kind of a pretty regime routine intervention to ideally prevent PTC.
But we're, you know, we're, we're doing the research in order to. develop better tools for early screening, that would be really accurate. So we don't want to screen everybody and tell everybody they have PTC fall intolerance. and also coming up with more interventions that are really robust and can even prevent PTC, which possibly could possibly with the right timing and the right intervention for some individuals could be preventable.
Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, because also, you know, it's not as with so many things that, you know, it doesn't just affect. The woman who's giving birth. I mean, there's an infant there. There's other, perhaps other children as well. And partners, you know, other family members who then have to, you know, step in somehow as well. I mean, it's, it's the repercussions are huge.
Sharon Dekel: Yes. Yes. In our study, [00:10:00] we, we are assessing maternal mental health. We also assess what we call kind of mother infant attachments. How are women making these early emotional connections with their babies, which we know this kind of maternal attachment is really important to support optimal child social emotional development.
So we're assessing the mother health, the maternal attachment, and the child development. And we do see that when we talk about maternal PTSD, it's often comorbid or co occurs with impairment in parenting the child and develop this mother infant attachment, because the way we think about PTSD is a condition that is evoked by reminders of trauma.
In the case of maternal PTSD, the baby could become a traumatic reminder and therefore the mother might eventually have a very difficult time taking care of her baby. And, you know, our research supports this.
Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, like, I mean, in animals, right? If there's something that kind of disrupts the flow, they reject the, the young.
Sharon Dekel: Exactly, exactly, exactly. But there's, you know, there's just a lot of silence around, you know, maternal PTSD doesn't [00:11:00] mean in the psychiatry that there is a DSM, which is a statistical matter for all the mental health disorders. In many ways, maternal PTSD doesn't exist. There is no PTSD with a postpartum onset.
So again, we're hoping that through this research, we will increase awareness, education and knowledge
Hardeep Ranu: and for the women who have had PTSD, and then they've been treated. How do those outcomes look? Have you talked about, you know, do you have
Sharon Dekel: not enough, not enough studies? but, most likely if you are receiving the appropriate treatment, you're likely to recover.
And then if you're considering getting pregnant again, this might be, you know, you're kind of possibly beginning your pregnancy from a very good place. I think, I think, you know, that this, vicious cycle of maternal psychopathology leading the woman to reject her baby. You see the maternal PTC mother is one of their common complaints is they don't want to get pregnant again.
They fear childbirth, including people who this would be against a [00:12:00] religious religion. And early treatment, possibly effective treatment possibly could buffer this very vicious cycle. So I would most likely women who are receiving treatment have better outcomes for themselves and for their babies.
Hardeep Ranu: Yeah.
You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm, I am aware that this is something that isn't spoken about, you know, like, I guess the women really don't talk about their childbirth. You know, there are experiences. I mean, once in a while, I mean, somebody will say, Oh, it was, it was a long labor and then I had a cesarean and I'm aware that once that happens, you have an emergency cesarean, there's a whole lot of trauma that's gone on for the woman.
In terms of trying to give birth and and it's not like you're going to go in for a scheduled cesarean which you know in I understand that surgery it's there's a lot of recovery from that but you've got all of this other um physical trauma. Exactly. Or the [00:13:00] surgical trauma as well.
Sharon Dekel: Exactly. Exactly. And you know, we, we see that, you know, we did a lot of, we do very in depth interviews and we interviewed hundreds of women in the lab at Mass General.
And again, the common theme is I never spoke about my traumatic delivery for people who had, who gave birth 10 years ago and have, and are suffering from PDs, PTZ, PTZ, by the way, is very comorbid co occurs with depression. So often complication of maternal PTZ is actually also suffering from depressive symptoms.
And this comorbidities could really have debilitating effects on the woman's health. So this idea of not talking about your birth trauma, not disclosing to your partner, to a provider, to your circle of friends, is unfortunately very common, and I think in part because people feel, from what I see in my research, women say they feel shamed.
They feel guilty that maybe what happened to them is because of their doing that they somehow failed. And they, therefore they have a pan caesarean, an emergency, and their body failed them. They don't want [00:14:00] to traumatize their friends who are about to have a baby. And, and just like, it's a very, everything is kept very secretive.
And that is definitely not helpful for mental health because the mental health One, I would say the early stages of recovery is actually disclosing what is happening to you with people you think could support you.
Hardeep Ranu: You know, it's that thing about talking about it, anything, you know, that's difficult that you think is, is hard, but once you share it with one person, you know, it hopefully would get easier if, yeah, it, you know, now thinking about it, it's, there's so few people who, who do say.
You know, you don't, you don't say, Oh, well, how was your, you know, I don't say to my next door neighbor who had a baby, you know, like, so how was it, how was it, you know, was it traumatic? You know, I don't really expect her to say anything, you know.
Sharon Dekel: Yes. But I feel like things are really changing in the right direction when it comes to maternal mental health.
You know, I joined Mass General Harvard [00:15:00] Medical School, in 2013. So almost a decade ago. And I believe that assessment for depression at Mass General during pregnancy and the postpartum is something that kind of was, emerging around that time, but before like 10 years ago, and there was really no recommendations of screening for mental health conditions during pregnancy as a routine care.
And now it's definitely done. I, it's a higher recommendation in the U S and I believe it's implemented in definitely the majority of the hospitals in the U S. So we are really heading in the right direction and, you know, NIH who, is supporting our research. There's a lot of recognition that mental health matters.
Mental health improves mother outcomes, infant health outcomes, and it's a lot of need for more research. And everybody knows this is the case these days. So it's a lot of support, which was very different in the past. Yeah.
Hardeep Ranu: And, um. So your lab, you, you have a pretty big lab, correct?
Sharon Dekel: Currently, we have, 18 members, majority are full time, some part time.
We have, [00:16:00] people who are more senior like postdocs. We have several CRCs. We have, students who come from Harvard, from Harvard University during their, their, we could have doctoral students and master level students and other students who come from universities, in the Boston area who do their own kind of independent research.
We have a lot of existing data. It's recollected in the past and people, students are taking their time to develop their own studies under my supervision. Most of our lab actually currently, exclusively it's, it's all women and we try to as much as we can to be inclusive. And I think people in my lab, I would say represents individuals who come from different cultures, speak different languages, different minority groups.
And this is something really that is very important for our lab to promote a lot of diversity.
Hardeep Ranu: So one thing I'm interested in is how you have transitioned to. You know, I know that at the instructor level, you know, it's generally you're on your own doing your own research. [00:17:00] And then once you start to become more senior assistant professor, then now you're managing you're, you're no longer at the sort of quote unquote bench.
And so now you're managing the lab. How did you find that transition?
Sharon Dekel: You know, I, it just kind of somehow happened. and. I think there's a, there's a lot to learn to, to manage, people and especially young people. And, you know, we, we've been pretty good in, in, I find that the people who work in the lab, it's like a fit, it's like anything in life, it has to be kind of a good chemistry.
And I feel that we were very fortunate that those who kind of worked in, I have been working in our lab in the past and currently. They have a lot of passion to the work we're doing. So I, I, I feel that, you know, people who let's say our first year, undergrads in university, they come to the lab that they're, they're interested in learning more about maternal mental health.
And then I feel like they kind of pick up the vibe in the lab. And that has been making, I think this idea of, [00:18:00] of mentoring a lot of people much easier because people are, I feel like we're all in this like one big mission of really improving the research. On maternal mental health to improve, the care of mothers.
And so there's a lot, there's a lot of, there's some kind of a small sense of family, which I feel like has been helping me managing people who I kind of, our kind of, I'm supervising them because they're very much kind of part of this one bigger group, but there are, you know, there's a lot of responsibility again, especially when there's young people and how do you ensure that they are really, kind of working in the pace.
If they want, they are achieving their goals in order, most people who come to my lab and are in the undergrad level, they want to head to medical school or to grad school. So we try to do our best to really support their, kind of professional growth by having them, getting them exposed to different studies.
Having them join manuscripts, even as first authors presenting their work in conferences and, and the same for postdocs. So I think [00:19:00] overall has been quite, you know, very, fulfilling, meaningful experience. I think that it's. It's helpful when they're, and this is something that has been developed mass general, but there is, several opportunities to get some more knowledge about this mentee mentor relationship and how can you like embrace on it and optimize it for both sides.
And I think knowing, the challenges and, and things that could. makes this relationship grow as much as possible is very important. So any, I think I would support any faculty member, anybody who's in this relationship of managing people to really find ways to, be involved in, in all kinds of more of educational activities to learn about what it requires to be a mentor.
Hardeep Ranu: So what would you say would be the sort of difficult side of things?
Sharon Dekel: Difficult side of things. Wow. This is, I think for me is, I often consider, the people that I work, I don't really see [00:20:00] them based on their academic title. so I have high expectations from them. And, possibly some people maybe don't have the passion that I have, or, you know, they're coming because they just want a six month to be in the lab and then they want to go back to the university.
So ideally understanding the expectations that, you know, what are the goals of, Menti, the postdoc vis a vis your goals and what is your expectations. I think it's something that is, is good to discuss, ahead of time and possibly also midway to really kind of make sure that people are. Getting at the end of the year at the end of two years at the end of the five years that they are where they want to be and where you want them to be.
Based on, you know, who they are and, and their own desires eventually. So you have to, I think it's like, you know, parenting, you want to push towards success, but at some point you have to give people their own autonomy to grow and, and, you know, develop it as they would like.
Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. It's sort of like that, that thing where you can see somebody's potential and you want to push them towards that [00:21:00] potential, but if they aren't ready to be pushed or they, you know, they're resistant to it.
There's a point at which you have to say, okay, I have my part.
Sharon Dekel: Yes. And I think, you know, for, for some people in my lab, and I get, as I said, most of them are women, people who define themselves as women. sometimes there's an issue of self esteem. And again, this is, I, this is just kind of who I am personally, intuitively.
I, I, I try to as much as I can to empower them. And, and sometimes it's. It's difficult, especially for people who, you know, maybe they are the first generation that goes to college. So I feel like my mission as their mentor is not only by making sure that they understand the math, the math with the reading or knowing the, you know, different protocol of the study, but also some kind of, and I guess that's my clinical psychology side.
Making sure that they are validated kind of more as a people in the lab to, you know, as you know, this reminds me when I think like 2014, maybe I received the Claflin award. This is a word through a [00:22:00] MGH Ecore to promote women in science. usually women in science who have mothers, actually women, people who are taking care of, have young kids.
And, I remember I went to the ceremony in Harvard medical school with my three girls at the time. My oldest at the time was, five. I have three girls. Twins and, at the time the twins were two and my oldest was five. And there was like this slide that showed the percentages of women faculty by academic degree assistant associated full professor women by gender.
So you can see I remember kind of in my five year old who's very academic. She's like, mommy, who look at this. It was like basically the instructor was almost like 50 50. Assistant I think was. Already, like maybe, I'm not sure, 100%. This is also 2014. I hope things have changed. It was lower. So it was, you know, it wasn't equal, but not, but the gaps were not so big.
I think associate was around like 30 percent of full professor was maybe 20 percent females. And my five year old, her name was Anna. She was kind of making this comment and observation of like, you [00:23:00] know, where are the women, whether, what are they doing? So, I think again, this idea of as going back to your question, and the challenges of a mentor, like how can you really empower the next generation?
Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, I think that, that is a question, right? Like where are all the women when you start to go, up the ranks, like what does happen to them or why did they, I don't know, get left behind or something,
Sharon Dekel: but it, but it is challenging. I'm, I'm sure, you know, the audience. And our Harvard Medical School community of women would are aware of the different challenges.
And, I, as I mentioned, I joined, MGH in 2013, my older was, my oldest was five and the twins were two. So that was, it was a very busy time in my personal life, as well as, working in the lab.
Hardeep Ranu: That's a lot of young, young people to have around, especially twins. So in terms of the JCSW. When did you join and why did you join and also what benefits have you seen or, you know, what kind of things do you like
Sharon Dekel: [00:24:00] about it?
I would say I'm a pretty new member. I joined in during the pandemic. you know, I always actually wanted to join. I read about the, you know, this association, it seems to me so powerful and, you know, life has been always so busy and during the pandemic, I, you know, we're receiving these recurrent emails, invitations to join for members.
I said, why, why not join? So I joined, the community engagement subcommittee. They, you know, the benefits is, is being part of this, larger, very powerful. community, which, really includes women who are doing all kinds of exciting work at, Harvard Medical School from, you know, fact research and non research.
I think that's just very powerful for me to, be part of this, of this group. And, you know, the, the mission of how can we, kind of support women in leadership, you know, I, I, I do research, but I'm, I'm, I'm very much involved, interested in getting more involved in educate, educating the next generation about, you know, personal [00:25:00] growth and work life balance.
And this is like, all seems to me very much relevant to the mission of the, Harvard Medical School Women's Association.
Hardeep Ranu: So you, you mentioned there like the personal development or, you know, professional development of the younger generation, like what kind of things do you see for them or, you know, what kind of programs would you suggest for them?
Sharon Dekel: You know, at Mass General, we have the, postdoctoral association program. I think this is how much of the formal official name. I've been a mentor in this program for several years, actually since 2016. It's open to, you know, postdoc, regardless of her gender. And I think that's a very, important association that having this, so kind of, we are serving as mentors, but we're not their academic mentors.
So it's not, I don't necessarily guide them on, on the content of their grant proposal, but it's, you know, more about like, you know, work life balance matters. We talk about, you know, this kind of [00:26:00] more agenda moving forward from a postdoctoral position to instructor positions. There's a lot of support of the overall general career trajectory.
And I think Developing more of these kinds of initiatives, at Harvard Medical School at the affiliated hospitals, I think it's very important because people often they're just, they don't know a lot of things that are in these very important junctions to make important decisions and just. People who already maybe made these decisions could really provide some input.
Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. So hearing from others who've been in similar situations would be really helpful. So I know that you had told me that you are from Israel originally and that And of course, I asked you about your, military service, because I always think those things are so interesting, how somebody has, and I know that yours was mandatory, so you had to do it.
But for people who have had some kind of military background and then are now doing something [00:27:00] completely different, but did those two years have a lasting effect on you? Or, you know, do you bring anything to from that experience to what you do now?
Sharon Dekel: I think it's a great question. I actually have never really contemplated about the impact of the army on my life and on my professional, professional trajectory, I think, in part because For people who live in Israel, everybody, for them, the vast, vast majority actually goes to the army.
So it's just like you're going to college. So why would you necessarily think how this really shaped your life? I was in the air force. I, the two years were actually very, very interesting. And I think possibly there are many ways it has impacted me as well as the fact that I'm originally from Israel. I'm sure that has impact impacted is impacting my identity living in the U S.
If there is one effect, I would say it's this idea that you are, you know, you're one person working in this kind of bigger for this bigger purpose. Clearly the purpose of army is all kinds of people. There could be [00:28:00] different purposes. Are there is even an army? Why do we need an army? And that's like, not, not our focus today.
but this idea that you're working towards a, like an important mission is something kind of, it's kind of very much the opposite of an individual. And this idea that you have a purpose for the purpose of a society. I hope I'm, I really hope that the research that we are doing has a purpose, not only for myself, mass general, but also for the larger community in this case, postpartum individuals.
And so I think this idea of. Giving back to the community by being part of like a larger mission is something that maybe has been kind of also influenced by my two influential years when I was, you know, back then 18 going to the army for two years and then being, I was on a reserve duty for, several years also.
So when I was like in college, so that's definitely a significant, chunk of time. And I think also I. Actually, I have recently, I've been using the [00:29:00] example of the army with a member with my, the people in my lab and, you know, I tell them that in the army, you know, you have the, you know, you have, you have your army shoes.
There was always, you had to have, you know, you have to wear uniform, you know, your shirt has to be tucked in, there is a belt, your shoes have to be shined. I slept in the camp for two years. So, you know, you have to fold your blanket in a certain way. And I remember at some point that I was 18, you know, as the more I became senior towards kind of the end of the two years, like, you know, who really cares how much my shoe is actually polished or not, what does it really matter?
I'm not liking, you know, it's not like they're presenting me on any kind of stage or it doesn't really matter, but I tell my stories, it does matter because this is part of discipline. So, you know, when we are working in the lab, when there is these small things that we need to revise a document, because there's something about the image or, you know, there's.
Something that we in the content of this specific sentence for IRB, which clearly the content of the sentence is very clear, but I think making sure that there is a discipline that are standards like doing very small things that possibly are insignificant, [00:30:00] possibly impacts the entire way of.
orchestrating your, your research. So I think that might be something that I possibly have earned in the army to, you know, make sure that these small things are, are really kept because this is like just good, habits for how you manage larger and more important tasks. Yeah.
Hardeep Ranu: It's, it's sort of like on the, on the face of it, you know, making sure your shirt is tucked in that, you know, your shoes are trying.
Seem insignificant in the grander scheme of things. But I think what, to your point about being in the military and the larger purpose of it, it is about making sure that these details are kept in check. Because I mean, you know, if we're gonna talk about the military, then you know, it's a life or death situation.
It could be, you know. Yes. So that's, that's interesting parallel to bring to, you know, to say, okay, you know, we're going to make sure these details are correct because every time, because we don't want it to be this one time where it's going to hold up a [00:31:00] project. Yes. So, I know you mentioned you have your three girls.
So when your daughter said to you, she's five years old, and she's saying, what happens to all the women? You know, as you go up to professor, what did you say to her? I
Sharon Dekel: actually, you know, at the time, again, she was very young and I tried as much as I can to just explain to her as is, you know, what I thought this is basically.
Usually women are the primary caregiver. and just, there is a lot of other demands and, and you find yourself making these decisions and therefore you decide this may be not the best path for you. So it was, it was clear to her and, and my younger, daughter, Sophie is one of the twins. She recently gave a TED talk and she, she's very, math oriented.
So she gave a TED talk about, the fact that there is not a lot of women. them in faculty. So I think it's kind of, you know, clearly part of this idea that it's clear to them. It's not a matter of ability, but it's a matter of a potential opportunities and a matter of, you know, how much you can, you know, you have the support to [00:32:00] make it work.
You know, this is something that also my, my. postdoc fellows ask me, especially I have, you know, had a postdoc fellow who, she currently is not in my lab. She was a postdoc fellow and had three young kids. And I think it's, it's just, it's a very true, true combination, going to be a mother, the way you want to be a mother, and also focusing on, in this case, you know, your academic career and integrating the two is really, really difficult.
And, this idea that it's just, You know, you can just do it. It's actually not so simple. and you know, when she asked me, like if I have any guidance for her, how to do it, I think it's just really hard. I think we need just to find better ways to support women, mothers. To be able to, you know, climb up the ladder if, you know, to ensure that this slide that we saw about the prevalence, the rates of female versus male, full professors at Harvard Medical School eventually would be 50, 50.
And maybe it has since 2014. I don't know the statistics exactly, but most likely not. So I [00:33:00] think it's very tricky. What's the secret to making this work? I don't know. People have their different arrangements. I, I know that in my case, my partner, my husband put in a lot of help to support us. And that was very, very helpful without his support.
Maybe at some point I would find this very, very challenging to do.
Hardeep Ranu: Would you ever have considered staying home and putting your career on hold?
Sharon Dekel: That's a terrific question. And I would say yes. I had the privilege to take very long maternity leave after the birth of my older child, you know, for a year, I actually, I had my own funding.
So, but I was like between postdoc and moving to the U. S. becoming instructor at Manhattan Medical School. So I was like in between these, these, this transition and I had my own funding. So I had my salary support and I could kind of work on my own pace through this external grant coming from a private foundation.
So that was like a way to. maintain some academic engagement, but also to be to have very, light workload. And then, when the twins were [00:34:00] born, I, I again had some kind of external funding and, and I, my pace was very, very, very slow. And I think that was kind of my decision to, to really take these very extended maternity leaves.
I think it's possible to come back, but like everything in life, I think everything in life has a price. you lose some, you win some and. And I think there is some, there is something very powerful to, stay at home. Like, I think a matter of what fits your personality the most, what are your resources, again, a very, I think, complex decision to make and possibly what is right or wrong varies by person.
Hardeep Ranu: So one question or two questions that I've been asking people is, you know, what's one professional skill and what personal skill are you working on or you would like to work on? I
Sharon Dekel: think, definitely, professional skills is time management. it's just, you know, as you, as you have more people you manage and you are in a given term or we have, you know, at least five studies, three usually are really active at the level of [00:35:00] recruiting participants.
So we do, we do clinical research. We have like humans, there's a lot of work and we have like, you know, Two more studies that we have a lot of data sets. We are just like revising and developing manuscripts. There's just a lot of, a lot of opportunities, a lot of great research questions to ask. A lot of collaborations from, with other universities, with international investigators.
I'm on the board of the Marseilles Society of Perinatal Mental Health. It's a, it's a large perinatal mental health organization, international. I, I chair the, it's called the Postpartum Trauma group as part of the International Society of Traumatic Stress Studies. There's a lot of engagements at Harvard, at Harvard, at MGH and outside of MGH.
Very, very busy. So how, what would be the best way to manage these, opportunities, but also maybe sometimes saying, no, this is like too much, I think I haven't really developed a good system for that. and also knowing how to manage my quality time. I think sometimes I, I know the research never ends.
So I could find myself. Revising a manuscript at [00:36:00] midnight, even after midnight, working on a grant. Again, there's no, there's no nine to five. and I think sometimes something that is important to, to remember to actually keep it nine to five, which I haven't really found, the way to do and, and making sure that, that, More, vacation time is really, a true vacation.
I think that that would be very important to, to, to know how to develop and maximize. so that's also kind of in my, I think, personal life. I, during the pandemic, we, we live close to the Charles river and during the pandemic, I began, running. I didn't really exercise a lot before the pandemic and.
I really am enjoying, running. I try to run almost every day. and you know, I've been, I'm involved also in research at MGH in which we study, the effects of exercise on the brain and mental health. So, you know, as I am, as I'm getting more, informative of, of the robust impact that exercise has on mental health and they kind of even encourages, even encourages me even more to actually [00:37:00] commit to this, physical activity and I, which I really enjoy.
So, you know, hopefully at some point, maybe I'll find myself. You know, training myself for the marathon, maybe at some point is something I, I hope for the future to have some kind of a purpose, which is focuses more on my hobby, not only my career. So what kind of
Hardeep Ranu: hobby would you, would you like to do, you know, if there's anything that you, you wish you knew more about.
I
Sharon Dekel: think painting, you know, I, I haven't, I have, you know, I took painting with my mother paints. my aunt, has painted, have a lot of family members who have even a family member who is a professional painter. There's a lot of paint painters around me. I sometimes paint my, one of the twins paints and we sometimes paint together.
We sometimes go to the Metropolitan New York and we just, look at one of the photos and we, and we come up, we come with our own markers and we paint very, you know, very nothing too sophisticated. And, I'd love to learn more and maybe, [00:38:00] take like more formal classes, which involves, painting.
Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. You know, the more I was thinking about, as we've been talking about your work, How much does it get talked about this PTSD? I mean, I, I know that, you know, it is not spoken about, but just thinking about it, cause I was thinking of Serena Williams,
Sharon Dekel: exactly. Yes. Yes.
Hardeep Ranu: It's sort of, you know, that. But what she went through,
Sharon Dekel: yes, but she did and other celebrities and I was actually interviewed on NBC today show.
Other celebrities spoke about their PTSD in regard to childbirth. There is, there is more and more awareness, but still. relatively limited. In the fall in October, I was a keynote speaker for the American Association of Anesthesiologists. I gave them a talk about PTC phone choppers or the obstetric anesthesiologists that are [00:39:00] actually present in the labor and delivery.
they are those, they actually are receiving, giving the epidural and, and, and other, medications. so that this was the first, I think, presenter that was coming from the field of mental health to kind of educate, these, providers. I gave a webinar for the Texas, department health, that would be for OB providers, obstetrical providers.
And again, I think that was their first initiative of Bringing a mental health provider who talks about PTSD. So I think hasn't really been talked about. People didn't don't really know about it so much, including delivering women. But there's really, I think, a trend towards more knowledge, more research, more awareness.
but again, as I mentioned, I began studying maternal PTSD. Maybe that was around 2015 or so, like two years after I joined, MGH. And, Some people, even the majority of people in kind of my larger team, basically, didn't really [00:40:00] understand why I'm actually studying this. They thought it's, it's extremely rare that if a person had, has birth trauma, maybe she's like an hysterical mom who really has a lot of psychopathology.
Before she gave birth today, these people tell me, wow, you really chose a great topic because nobody's doing the research. And we are possibly really, you know, collecting a lot of important information to fill in a critical research gap. but some years ago it was like, why would you even consider birth to be a trauma, like going to war?
so I'm very happy that we chose actually to, to focus on this, research, initiative.
Hardeep Ranu: Is there anything else that you would, you want to say? Cause as we start to wrap up the conversation,
Sharon Dekel: Yeah, first of all, it was been really, such a delightful experience to, to talk about myself and my research and your questions were terrific.
Made me kind of making me already think about things as I'm going to run in an hour about, you know, but this idea that I really, see. This is, I think, true for our [00:41:00] organization and, you know, Harvard Medical School at large is really, such an important asset for the world and for women in the world.
And like, how can we, you know, really make our ideas become into real concrete actions? And, how can we make sure that we are empowering women, especially those who, who are part of more vulnerable groups, in my research. Again, birth trauma is, is more common among black women, among Hispanic women, among people who are poor.
we don't know enough about these people in terms of research because we have less access, access and research to these people for all kinds of reasons. You know, my vision, this is what I wish my, for myself, this was kind of the new year that at some point at master and all, or, you know, this was, it would be part of Harvard medical school.
That's fine with me to, develop. a center in which we would, study and treat women for PTC fall into our birth and birth birth trauma in which the treatment is offered for free. Because, you know, I know in my research, if there is [00:42:00] treatments, treatment is coming part of the study. So that's usually a subgroup of individuals who are subjects in our research for which are the researches involved treatment, but other studies don't involve treatment.
So we do our best to referrals for in house treatment at MGH or in the community. And again, many people have a difficult time finding the provider. People don't have the right insurance, or even if they have the right insurance, just understanding what the insurance allows them and the reimbursement.
It's just so complicated. And when you have a mental illness. Part of having a mental illness is having very limited initiation. So, if there was eventually, a way that we could build a center, which we require, you know, definitely a lot of support from somebody who would want to give to the hospital, I think eventually in a, in a good world, we'll have treatment that is really offered almost, or, or free for many people who really, really would benefit, I think for the benefit of the mothers, their babies and their society.
Hardeep Ranu: Yeah, so your vision is [00:43:00] towards having a center for maternal mental
Sharon Dekel: health, focusing on birth trauma. Part of the research is as in being in the research, but you will receive also therapy for free. That is not necessarily part of the research, but because we know there are treatments and there are, there are providers definitely in Boston who could work in such a center.
We just need, you know, somebody to support the center. To be able to offer treatment for free. And especially because, you know, since the pandemic, we know that remote or telehealth is actually very powerful. So it's really feasible. I think we just need support for, for free therapy.
Hardeep Ranu: Yeah. So whoever's listening, if you want to donate a large sum of money towards having this.
vision come, come to life, then, please contact us and let us
Sharon Dekel: know. That would be, that would be, yeah, I think that this is the kind of world that I would like to live in that, you know, people who, you know, regardless of who they are really have access to care. Not only that we document the disparities, which we have been, but [00:44:00] actually doing something very concrete to, close these gaps.
Hardeep Ranu: Thank you so much for doing this.
Sharon Dekel: Pleasure.
